Some 'aggressive' tool for ID

fernando · 25th January 2018, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I have two immense hand turned wood cider press screws from the mill at Chickering Farm in my basement here on the Cape...

Most interesting; and eventually the kind of things you can't collect and keep in a 1st floor apartment ...

Rick · 25th January 2018, 03:58 PM

I was hoping to use them as an interior feature in one of the houses I have built here, but I just couldn't find a way to do that, so they rest in the cellar.
Maybe my boy can find a use for them.

fernando · 26th January 2018, 04:54 PM

My neighborhood fellow collector has one of these things, but sturdier and with a wider thread pitch; for wine or olive oil, i don't remember ... but certainly not for cider. He decided to transform his large house basement divisions and removed the screw from its original old press apparatus. I don't know what will happen to it.

Madnumforce · 14th February 2018, 02:51 AM

I don't know if it can help, Fernando, but in French hay knives are called "coupe-foin", hay-cutters. And the one you have there is refered to in catalogs as "coupe-foin américain", as there were traditional patterns that looked like spades. I've posted pictures of scans of toolmakers catalogs from around the 20's, showing both the "coupe-foin américain", other traditionnal French patterns of coupe-foins, and various other tools, including "coupe-marc" and "taille-pré" that are sometimes sold as medieval halberds or vouges for many hundreds of dollars/euros. Though it's still relatively rare, you can buy them in flee markets and garage sells for 40-120€

kronckew · 14th February 2018, 06:56 AM

Those coup-foin have quite a few variants that look like, with long handles, would make nasty weapons for peasant infantry levies. much like the english bill was used by the english infantry. I seem to recall one of the No. 1883 ones being sold as a heart shaped 'Halberd' on a well known auction site.

Madnumforce · 14th February 2018, 10:38 AM

Yes, it's relatively frequent to see agricultural or woodworking tools sold as weapons on auction sites, but also in legitimate auctions, and even displayed as such in museums. Not only is there a deep ignorance about tools, but there even is a will not to know anymore. Most often, the tools sold/displayed have typical 19th century features like maker stamps and such, which would immediately give them away to any even mildly experienced tool collector enthusiast.

Now about the fact that some tools could be used as weapon: sure! But as I just wrote, many of these tools are from the 19th century, or even early 20th, so these specific ones have a near zero chance to have ever been used in a military context. In some local riots, to let your neighbour know that he had his cattle grazing into your meadow one time too many, or to teach a lesson to that guy who kissed your girlfriend at patron saint ball, yes, surely.

But as the "peasants" using them did not really care about them that much (they wouldn't have wanted to lose it or have it stolen, but if it broke or they knew they wouldn't have any more use of it, they could have it recycled in a hammer, a plowshare, whatever), and because historians, archeologists and curators almost don't care about tools, and their collecting value is much lower than that of weapons (while they need as much maintenance and care), there really is a difficulty to try to reconstruct the evolution of some specific kind of tools. The coupe-foin, coupe-marc and taille-pré are among those tools we have no clue if they even existed in the 18th century, for example, or what shape they were, etc... There may be some surviving specimens somewhere, in some private collection, or hung to a wall. The trouble is the scarcity of the data, how few people are interested in collecting it, and how scattered the knowledge is. Peasant life left very very few traces in iconography and literature.

Recently, I was thrilled because I have found a picture of a very well preserved 11th century capital, showing two peasants fighting each other with a billhook, for a period we have near zero iconography, and which specimens are completely overlooked by archeological research. We know relatively well what Roman era billhooks looked like, simply because the period raises much interest and despite the archeologists' lack of interest for tools, they still include them in their reports among the various metallic (s)crap they find. We of course have catalogs from the early 20th century, and many surviving examples from the 19th century, some of the 18th and 17th, but very few data in between (except when it comes to vine cultivation, as it was seen as something of interest by the ruling/educated class). So this capital was rather exceptional, especially in this mind-boggling state of preservation (it had been re-used in the building of a wall, sculpted face facing inward, and this is what preserved it).

Also, a picture of the only coupe-marc I have. Overall head length 55cm, blade lenght 41cm, blade width 11.5cm, and average blade thickness varies along the lenght, but starts at around 5mm if you exclude the transitional zone with the socket, and the weight of the head is a tad under 2kg. I would say it's a bit too heavy to make a good poleweapon, and it lacks a thrusting point, but if nothing else was available, it surely would be more than enough to split someone's head to the teeth without even forcing. Oh, just to make it clear: the edge is on the convex side of the blade, the concave side is the spine.

fernando · 14th February 2018, 12:25 PM

Merci Geoffroy, for the complementary info, the catalogue pages ... and the picture of that magnificent capital. If you were to make a joke about tools serving as weapons, or vice versa, you would say that those two guys are about to trim eachothers beards

.
Now, coupe-foin sounds more like it in my idiom; it would translate as corta-feno, although i find no tool with such name over here. Amazing that although my example looks fully American, the first time i see one with the center handle towards the right, like mine, is French nº 364 in F. BRET catalogue.
Gathering things like this hay knife is result of giving full attention to unusual old tools in flea markets, in order not to let go specimens that have eventually served as weapons, under this or that circumstance. I too had an interesting coupe-marc discussed HERE, which i ended up passing it over to a friend who also likes to gather interesting tools, even knowing they are not weapons. Perhaps the tool i currently have more close to being a weapon is THIS ONE

25th January 2018, 03:58 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I was hoping to use them as an interior feature in one of the houses I have built here, but I just couldn't find a way to do that, so they rest in the cellar. Maybe my boy can find a use for them. Attached Images

14th February 2018, 02:51 AM	#4
Madnumforce Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 28	I don't know if it can help, Fernando, but in French hay knives are called "coupe-foin", hay-cutters. And the one you have there is refered to in catalogs as "coupe-foin américain", as there were traditional patterns that looked like spades. I've posted pictures of scans of toolmakers catalogs from around the 20's, showing both the "coupe-foin américain", other traditionnal French patterns of coupe-foins, and various other tools, including "coupe-marc" and "taille-pré" that are sometimes sold as medieval halberds or vouges for many hundreds of dollars/euros. Though it's still relatively rare, you can buy them in flee markets and garage sells for 40-120€ Attached Images

14th February 2018, 10:38 AM	#6
Madnumforce Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 28	Yes, it's relatively frequent to see agricultural or woodworking tools sold as weapons on auction sites, but also in legitimate auctions, and even displayed as such in museums. Not only is there a deep ignorance about tools, but there even is a will not to know anymore. Most often, the tools sold/displayed have typical 19th century features like maker stamps and such, which would immediately give them away to any even mildly experienced tool collector enthusiast. Now about the fact that some tools could be used as weapon: sure! But as I just wrote, many of these tools are from the 19th century, or even early 20th, so these specific ones have a near zero chance to have ever been used in a military context. In some local riots, to let your neighbour know that he had his cattle grazing into your meadow one time too many, or to teach a lesson to that guy who kissed your girlfriend at patron saint ball, yes, surely. But as the "peasants" using them did not really care about them that much (they wouldn't have wanted to lose it or have it stolen, but if it broke or they knew they wouldn't have any more use of it, they could have it recycled in a hammer, a plowshare, whatever), and because historians, archeologists and curators almost don't care about tools, and their collecting value is much lower than that of weapons (while they need as much maintenance and care), there really is a difficulty to try to reconstruct the evolution of some specific kind of tools. The coupe-foin, coupe-marc and taille-pré are among those tools we have no clue if they even existed in the 18th century, for example, or what shape they were, etc... There may be some surviving specimens somewhere, in some private collection, or hung to a wall. The trouble is the scarcity of the data, how few people are interested in collecting it, and how scattered the knowledge is. Peasant life left very very few traces in iconography and literature. Recently, I was thrilled because I have found a picture of a very well preserved 11th century capital, showing two peasants fighting each other with a billhook, for a period we have near zero iconography, and which specimens are completely overlooked by archeological research. We know relatively well what Roman era billhooks looked like, simply because the period raises much interest and despite the archeologists' lack of interest for tools, they still include them in their reports among the various metallic (s)crap they find. We of course have catalogs from the early 20th century, and many surviving examples from the 19th century, some of the 18th and 17th, but very few data in between (except when it comes to vine cultivation, as it was seen as something of interest by the ruling/educated class). So this capital was rather exceptional, especially in this mind-boggling state of preservation (it had been re-used in the building of a wall, sculpted face facing inward, and this is what preserved it). Also, a picture of the only coupe-marc I have. Overall head length 55cm, blade lenght 41cm, blade width 11.5cm, and average blade thickness varies along the lenght, but starts at around 5mm if you exclude the transitional zone with the socket, and the weight of the head is a tad under 2kg. I would say it's a bit too heavy to make a good poleweapon, and it lacks a thrusting point, but if nothing else was available, it surely would be more than enough to split someone's head to the teeth without even forcing. Oh, just to make it clear: the edge is on the convex side of the blade, the concave side is the spine. Attached Images

26th January 2018, 04:54 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My neighborhood fellow collector has one of these things, but sturdier and with a wider thread pitch; for wine or olive oil, i don't remember ... but certainly not for cider. He decided to transform his large house basement divisions and removed the screw from its original old press apparatus. I don't know what will happen to it.

14th February 2018, 06:56 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	Those coup-foin have quite a few variants that look like, with long handles, would make nasty weapons for peasant infantry levies. much like the english bill was used by the english infantry. I seem to recall one of the No. 1883 ones being sold as a heart shaped 'Halberd' on a well known auction site.

14th February 2018, 12:25 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Merci Geoffroy, for the complementary info, the catalogue pages ... and the picture of that magnificent capital. If you were to make a joke about tools serving as weapons, or vice versa, you would say that those two guys are about to trim eachothers beards . Now, coupe-foin sounds more like it in my idiom; it would translate as corta-feno, although i find no tool with such name over here. Amazing that although my example looks fully American, the first time i see one with the center handle towards the right, like mine, is French nº 364 in F. BRET catalogue. Gathering things like this hay knife is result of giving full attention to unusual old tools in flea markets, in order not to let go specimens that have eventually served as weapons, under this or that circumstance. I too had an interesting coupe-marc discussed HERE, which i ended up passing it over to a friend who also likes to gather interesting tools, even knowing they are not weapons. Perhaps the tool i currently have more close to being a weapon is THIS ONE