Banten? Keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I have no doubt at all that Dresden 2886 was collected in Banten, but where it was collected, when it was collected, is really of no interest to me at all.

If it had been collected in New York City in 2017, my comments would be exactly the same.

EDIT

that sounds brusque. sorry.

What I mean is that if I am attempting to give a tangguh on a keris, I do not consider where it has come from, or how long ago it was collected, or even what sort of dress it is in. If I did any of those things it would defeat the purpose.

The opinion of classification should depend on the observed factors, not the information from outside factors:- take just the blade, look at it, feel it, if necessary keep it around you for a few days, but ignore what people or circumstances want to tell you.

[David]

Thank you for your detailed response Alan. I believe that you need to write that 10,000 word treatise and publish it in every sector of the keris collecting world. Not that it would make much difference i suppose. Times change and attitudes and ideas change with them i suppose.
Still, as i read through your response it was clear to me that it contains very little that you or others have not made clear in this forum many times over the years. Yet somehow it seems that it is information that still needs to be repeated again and again as more and more new collectors come into the keris world and latch onto these newer interpretations of the meaning of tangguh, its limitations and intents and purposes. Perhaps it is futile to resist these changes of definition and application and my attitudes about this are hopelessly idealistic, but i fear that as the keris collecting world continues to "evolve" we are in danger of losing certain essential "truths" about the keris through the institutionalization of the latest tends and ideas.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, one big problem with understanding tangguh is that many Javanese traditionalists absolutely believe that a keris with Tangguh Majapahit was in fact made during the Majapahit era and in the locality of Majapahit. This is what I was taught.

The reality is quite a bit different to the traditional belief.

However, one does not chalk up brownie points by disagreeing with people who have traditional beliefs, they simply stop telling you what you want to know.

One needs to be able to become two people:- the traditional believer and the analytical investigator.

I used to know a bloke who was an academic in the Universitas Sebelas Maret in Solo. This bloke was a very clear, logical thinker, he was in his thirties when I knew him, he was a lecturer in business management. He had been born in a little village on the slopes of Mount Lawu, his family lived there and he grew up there.

We were talking about traditional beliefs one day, and he expressed the view that in his opinion it the particular item of belief that we were talking about was stupid superstition. I asked him how he got on with his family if he held a point of view like this.

He responded that when he went back to his village he thought in the way that the rest of his family did, when he was in Solo, working at the university he thought as he needed to think to be a university lecturer.

If we want to understand the keris, and to learn about it, we need to be able to think in a way that is in harmony with the people who own keris culture.

But having gained the knowledge we then need to be able to apply different thought patterns to it.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, one big problem with understanding tangguh is that many Javanese traditionalists absolutely believe that a keris with Tangguh Majapahit was in fact made during the Majapahit era and in the locality of Majapahit. This is what I was taught.

The reality is quite a bit different to the traditional belief.

However, one does not chalk up brownie points by disagreeing with people who have traditional beliefs, they simply stop telling you what you want to know.

One needs to be able to become two people:- the traditional believer and the analytical investigator.

I used to know a bloke who was an academic in the Universitas Sebelas Maret in Solo. This bloke was a very clear, logical thinker, he was in his thirties when I knew him, he was a lecturer in business management. He had been born in a little village on the slopes of Mount Lawu, his family lived there and he grew up there.

We were talking about traditional beliefs one day, and he expressed the view that in his opinion it the particular item of belief that we were talking about was stupid superstition. I asked him how he got on with his family if he held a point of view like this.

He responded that when he went back to his village he thought in the way that the rest of his family did, when he was in Solo, working at the university he thought as he needed to think to be a university lecturer.

If we want to understand the keris, and to learn about it, we need to be able to think in a way that is in harmony with the people who own keris culture.

But having gained the knowledge we then need to be able to apply different thought patterns to it.

I completely concur with these thoughts Alan. Thanks you for your comments.