Banten? Keris

[Athanase]

Originally Posted by David

I would also ask, is anyone capable of presenting photos of these Dresden examples (2886 and 2899) here for these discussions? For many of us these conversations are useless without a visual illustration to follow along with these observations. Thanks!

Yes please because I am a little lost. I am still sad with the specific vocabulary of various part of the blade (especially that on the Internet plans don't use every the same name or the same spelling).

I don't understand this stupid regulation that forbids the sharing of photos of a piece kept in museums. A museum is made to preserve and share a knowledge or a masterpiece with the biggest numbers! If the object isn't exposed and that the museum prohibits the photos it should either publish official photos on its website, or in a publication available for purchase for those interested.

Otherwise, would it be possible for those who have photos to draw shematically the blades in question? (when you have some time of course).

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I do not currently have access to Jensen's Kris Disc, and I am not looking at his photos, I have been looking at my own photos which are much more detailed and supported by notes on the various features of each keris I examined.

I prefer not to comment on Jensen's use of photographs.

Athanase, keris terminology can be very confusing. Spellings for the same word can vary, and the words themselves are seldom carved in stone. This link may assist a little:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

In respect of the attitudes of museums, I prefer not to comment, except to say that many people do share your opinion.

On the other hand, I have always found museum staffs very obliging in making items held by them available for examination.

I'm afraid I am not able to draw sufficiently well to demonstrate the very, very tiny differences in various keris that permit us to assign one classification or another.

[Jean]

I attach a scanned picture of the kris #2886 in question taken from Jensen's Krisdisk, sorry for the quality.
Regards

[Jean]

(Post cancelled)

[Athanase]

Thank you Jean!
The hilt is also very close to the hilt of my keris.

[David]

Thanks Jean, much appreciated.

[Jean]

As you now can see the pics of the 2 krisses (from Athanase and Dresden #2886) I would like to initiate a comparison of the blades for your comments:
Both blades have a similar dapur with the following ricikan: smooth gandik, ada-ada, pejetan, long tikel alis & sraweyan (or short kruwingan), double sogokan, and greneng. Jensen calls this dapur pendawa but this is not correct as the blades have no kembang kacang? I cannot check the reference book Dhapur but this particular dapur is not listed in the EK so probably not a Central Java standard. This is not surprising if the blades do not originate from Central Java.
The differences between the 2 blades which I can notice are as follows:
. The Dresden blade has a thingil on the ganja while Ahanase's kris has a full greneng (double rondha). The ganja of the Dresden kris is not standard for a Banten kris and may have been replaced.
. The pejetan of the Dresden blade is slightly boto adeg (brick standing-up) while the pejetan of Athanase's blade is slightly boto rubuh (brick laying down).
. the Dresden blade is more worn and has less visible pamor than Athanase's kris and it may be older (before 1671).

My question is as follows:
Banten is not a recognized tangguh according to the Central Java classification, it was a trading center so the blades from Banten may have originated from elsewhere in Java (I hardly see any differences between the blades from Banten and Blambangan in the Krisdisk for instance). Accordingly it would not be surprising to find some slight differences in the ricikan of these blades.
If the Dresden blade is classified as from Banten (probably the area where it was purchased), and considering the small differences between the 2 blades, is it justified to reject the Banten classification (or at least origin) for Athanase's blade and what is the proposed alternative, Pajajaran? The Pajajaran kingdom was conquered by Banten in 1580 so it probably no longer existed when this blade was made, and the style of greneng of Athanase's blade (deep and sharp) does not match with the style of Pajajaran greneng (shallow) as shown on Alan's sketch. Also the ganja of Athanase's kris is curved on the back side (sebit rontal?) while the ganja of Pajajaran blades are flat and with parallel faces according to Alan' sketch.
For your consideration and comments.
Regards