Flintlock Musket Advice Required

rickystl · 29th December 2017, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Rick, it may be that this batch that Turner bought in Belgium was assembled and then simply warehoused before they could be fully finished (note the grinder marks), and drilled and tapped for the sideplate screws needed to mount them onto whole guns. If they were made sometime between WW II and the 1950s, the market for such things in the final decades of the African colonies might have simply petered out due to the influx of inexpensive surplus rifles smuggled in from postwar Europe.

Long guns with this type of Portuguese lock were made in Belgium in the 19th cent. and possibly before. There is one of superb quality, maybe made in Liège and probably for export to Portugal or its colonies, dated 1821 that is published in Rainer Daehnhardt / Claude Gaier, Espingardaria Portuguesa, Armurerie Liègeoise (1975), pp 86-87. The specific type of lock is a fairly late one originating towards the end of the 17th cent. in Portugal, a Luso-French mechanical hybrid combining the innards of a French flintlock and the exterior design of the earlier Portuguese fecho de molinhas. The centuries-long presence of Portugal as a colonial master in equatorial and east Africa (Angola, Guinea-Bissau, Moçambique, etc) created a familiarity with and demand for Portuguese armament among the local cultures. (hence the local production of crude copies of 15th-16th cent. Portuguese and Spanish-style broadswords as symbolic regalia in Kongo and other areas down to the last century).

Hi Philip.

I'm sure all of your analysis above is correct. The Portuguese dominence in the Region may very well account for the original prototype for this lock. It makes sense. Good point.
Yes, the lack of mounting holes and the unpolished finish seem to indicate that's where the production ended. And just stored away in a warehouse and forgotten. LOL
Notice also, there is not even a half-cock/safety notch cut into the tumbler. Seems like they were trying to cut every corner making these. LOL
Thanks for the additional Regional knowledge.

Rick

Philip · 29th December 2017, 06:09 PM

Not only is there no half-cock detent in the tumbler, there appears to be no functioning lockplate safety pawl on the outside of the lockplate as is typical on several earlier Portuguese locks -- the molinhas, the horse-neck or pescoço de cavalo, and the half-Portuguese half-French or meio à portuguesa e meio à francesa systems in particular. On the trade-gun flintlock we are discussing there appears an oblong projection from the plate just ahead of the cock -- I haven't examined one of these locks in a long time but as I recall it doesn't swivel so that it can't perform the function of the "Portuguese brake" on the above-mentioned locks, and would therefore be just a stylistic flourish.

When I was in high school I saw a film about tribal life in equatorial Africa (this was in the 1960s, pre-Kalashnikov era), and a local hunter had a Belgian-type halfstock trade gun with a conventional percussion cap lock. Pretty basic gear, the lead balls weren't remotely spherical, and when he loaded the gun and carried it around, he gently lowered the hammer onto the capped nipple and let it be until he was ready to cock and fire. If this was traditional practice in the culture-sphere, maybe that's why a half-cock detent was considered superfluous! (by the way, he missed a coke bottle on a stick at less than 20 paces...)

rickystl · 29th December 2017, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Not only is there no half-cock detent in the tumbler, there appears to be no functioning lockplate safety pawl on the outside of the lockplate as is typical on several earlier Portuguese locks -- the molinhas, the horse-neck or pescoço de cavalo, and the half-Portuguese half-French or meio à portuguesa e meio à francesa systems in particular. On the trade-gun flintlock we are discussing there appears an oblong projection from the plate just ahead of the cock -- I haven't examined one of these locks in a long time but as I recall it doesn't swivel so that it can't perform the function of the "Portuguese brake" on the above-mentioned locks, and would therefore be just a stylistic flourish.

When I was in high school I saw a film about tribal life in equatorial Africa (this was in the 1960s, pre-Kalashnikov era), and a local hunter had a Belgian-type halfstock trade gun with a conventional percussion cap lock. Pretty basic gear, the lead balls weren't remotely spherical, and when he loaded the gun and carried it around, he gently lowered the hammer onto the capped nipple and let it be until he was ready to cock and fire. If this was traditional practice in the culture-sphere, maybe that's why a half-cock detent was considered superfluous! (by the way, he missed a coke bottle on a stick at less than 20 paces...)

Hi Philip.
Yes, that piece just ahead of the hammer neck is rigid. Just a stying excercise. Doesn't even act as a hammer stop. I guess the lock designer was not much worried about the locals carrying the gun in full cock mode all the time. LOL Yes, looks like they cut every corner not having the original style exterior dog-style safety.

Rick

Norman McCormick · 7th February 2018, 08:30 PM

Hi,
Barrel definitely made in U.K.
Regards,
Norman.

JamesKelly · 16th February 2018, 06:46 PM

Before you remove that Nasty Orange paint you might investigate it a bit.

I used to work as the metallurgist for a specialty nickel alloy distributor, retired the Ides of March 2007. One of the neat gadgets we had was an X-ray fluoroscope analyzer. Left no mark on the metal. For some years I used to bring in various brass mounted or framed firearms for analysis.

Used one called "Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S Spectrometer"
This device is also used to analyze pigments in the paint on supposedly old oil paintings. Lets one know if this classic work used pigments - cadmium, for example - that were not available couple hundred years ago.

If you can locate either a friend in metallurgy, or at an art museum, you might get your paint analyzed. Give you some idea of age, though it sure does look old.

A Word of Warning - some lab guys have absolutely no respect for antiquity. Coupled with a bad sense of humor, well. Do make sure your personal body is present during any phase of lab testing. So they don't cut the thing up for a better job. Don't laugh.
Gun makers have been painting their stocks various colors for the last five centuries or so. Matchlock showed a lovely (to my eye) 500-year old Green snapping matchlock.
Here in the USA a successful gun-smith Henry Leman in Lancaster, Pennsylvania painted a number of his rifles red. Supposedly the Indians liked them, and he did supply rifles to our Gov't to fulfill treaty obligations with the Western Indians. Also it would likely be cheaper than his usual painted strips on plain maple. Am aware of one such red Leman rifle bought by a Caucasian in Lancaster County, them moved to our Midwest.

Personally I would leave that orange paint right where it is.

colin henshaw · 14th March 2018, 09:39 AM

This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish.

corrado26 · 14th March 2018, 11:10 AM

I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding:

Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms.
At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength.

No word of orange or reddish stocks at all!
corrado26

kronckew · 29th December 2017, 06:14 PM

Be careful if you remove the paint. red lead paints can look a quite bright orange & can be bad for your health.

29th December 2017, 06:09 PM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	cutting corners Not only is there no half-cock detent in the tumbler, there appears to be no functioning lockplate safety pawl on the outside of the lockplate as is typical on several earlier Portuguese locks -- the molinhas, the horse-neck or pescoço de cavalo, and the half-Portuguese half-French or meio à portuguesa e meio à francesa systems in particular. On the trade-gun flintlock we are discussing there appears an oblong projection from the plate just ahead of the cock -- I haven't examined one of these locks in a long time but as I recall it doesn't swivel so that it can't perform the function of the "Portuguese brake" on the above-mentioned locks, and would therefore be just a stylistic flourish. When I was in high school I saw a film about tribal life in equatorial Africa (this was in the 1960s, pre-Kalashnikov era), and a local hunter had a Belgian-type halfstock trade gun with a conventional percussion cap lock. Pretty basic gear, the lead balls weren't remotely spherical, and when he loaded the gun and carried it around, he gently lowered the hammer onto the capped nipple and let it be until he was ready to cock and fire. If this was traditional practice in the culture-sphere, maybe that's why a half-cock detent was considered superfluous! (by the way, he missed a coke bottle on a stick at less than 20 paces...)

7th February 2018, 08:30 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, Barrel definitely made in U.K. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

14th March 2018, 09:39 AM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish. Attached Images

16th February 2018, 06:46 PM	#5
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	Before you remove that Nasty Orange paint you might investigate it a bit. I used to work as the metallurgist for a specialty nickel alloy distributor, retired the Ides of March 2007. One of the neat gadgets we had was an X-ray fluoroscope analyzer. Left no mark on the metal. For some years I used to bring in various brass mounted or framed firearms for analysis. Used one called "Innov-X Systems Model #XT-245S Spectrometer" This device is also used to analyze pigments in the paint on supposedly old oil paintings. Lets one know if this classic work used pigments - cadmium, for example - that were not available couple hundred years ago. If you can locate either a friend in metallurgy, or at an art museum, you might get your paint analyzed. Give you some idea of age, though it sure does look old. A Word of Warning - some lab guys have absolutely no respect for antiquity. Coupled with a bad sense of humor, well. Do make sure your personal body is present during any phase of lab testing. So they don't cut the thing up for a better job. Don't laugh. Gun makers have been painting their stocks various colors for the last five centuries or so. Matchlock showed a lovely (to my eye) 500-year old Green snapping matchlock. Here in the USA a successful gun-smith Henry Leman in Lancaster, Pennsylvania painted a number of his rifles red. Supposedly the Indians liked them, and he did supply rifles to our Gov't to fulfill treaty obligations with the Western Indians. Also it would likely be cheaper than his usual painted strips on plain maple. Am aware of one such red Leman rifle bought by a Caucasian in Lancaster County, them moved to our Midwest. Personally I would leave that orange paint right where it is.

14th March 2018, 11:10 AM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding: Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms. At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength. No word of orange or reddish stocks at all! corrado26

29th December 2017, 06:14 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	Be careful if you remove the paint. red lead paints can look a quite bright orange & can be bad for your health.