Balinese kris from Polish Museum

David · 19th December 2017, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Checked the blade and it measures from tip to ganja: 37 cm and showing a wide base and clotchy pamor so doubtfree a Madurese blade.

Well Paul, i won't make any claims of origin since the photos provided don't give me a very good look at this blade, but Madura is right next to Jawa and it is considered a part of East Jawa. I would not be surprised to find a few Javanese blades in custom-fit Madurese dress. So that the blade is neatly fitted to the sheath is not really an indication that the blade was made in Madura.
I also don't see why you site the blade length as evidence of Madurese origin. 37 cm is well within the expected lengths of Javanese blades as well.
I am having a hard time seeing this kinatah as "superbly made", but maybe we just need to see closer, sharper images to understand what you see with the blade in hand.
BTW, we are here in this thread already so we should continue here, but the only similarity this keris has to the ones under discussion is the topengan. This keris probably would have been better suited to its own separate thread. Just something to think about for future postings.

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2017, 06:37 PM

Let us look at this keris as it is supposed to seen.

Now, just exactly what classification are we looking at here?

Is it Madura, or is it one of the Javanese classifications?

Bear this in mind:- when we classify a keris, that is to say, when we propose a tangguh, we do not say "Jawa" first and then decide upon the tangguh, no, we firstly try to align the blade features with the classification indicators, we decide our tangguh opinion, and only then can we say:- "Jawa".

So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit?

Jean · 19th December 2017, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit?

Hello Alan,
I would not venture to assign a tangguh to this blade from the pics and just envisaged that it could be Javanese from its overall proportions and ricikan (kembang kacang, greneng) which look more Javanese than Madurese to me. I attach a pic of what I understand as a more typical wavy madurese blade.
Regards

Gustav · 19th December 2017, 08:49 PM

Back to square one.

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2017, 09:28 PM

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.

Jean · 20th December 2017, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.

Hello Alan,
Thank you and I won't argue anymore as we are deviating from the original subject, but would you say that every old Javanese blade (including the village and trade pieces) should be aligned to a specific tangguh?
Paul, could you please post a clear picture of the sorsoran of the blade?

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2017, 12:30 PM

Absolutely not Jean --- from the classic point of view.

But it seems to be obvious to me that the current crop of collectors, the bulk of whom are from outside the society and the social level for whom the tangguh system was relevant, now have decided that a tangguh can be stuck onto every keris ever made.

That's just the way it is at the moment, and I doubt that it will ever go back to the classic form.

After all, it is only an opinion, and opinions in the strictest sense are not really open to debate, but they can be discussed, which makes tangguh a wonderful method of generating conversation and social interaction.

19th December 2017, 06:37 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Let us look at this keris as it is supposed to seen. Now, just exactly what classification are we looking at here? Is it Madura, or is it one of the Javanese classifications? Bear this in mind:- when we classify a keris, that is to say, when we propose a tangguh, we do not say "Jawa" first and then decide upon the tangguh, no, we firstly try to align the blade features with the classification indicators, we decide our tangguh opinion, and only then can we say:- "Jawa". So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit? Attached Images

19th December 2017, 09:28 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura. Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura. Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation. Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan? Could it be Pajajaran? Majapahit? Banten? Surakarta? It doesn't fit any of those, does it? Where do you go from there? But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it. Attached Images

19th December 2017, 08:49 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Back to square one.

20th December 2017, 12:30 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Absolutely not Jean --- from the classic point of view. But it seems to be obvious to me that the current crop of collectors, the bulk of whom are from outside the society and the social level for whom the tangguh system was relevant, now have decided that a tangguh can be stuck onto every keris ever made. That's just the way it is at the moment, and I doubt that it will ever go back to the classic form. After all, it is only an opinion, and opinions in the strictest sense are not really open to debate, but they can be discussed, which makes tangguh a wonderful method of generating conversation and social interaction.