How Strong are Luzon and Visayan Blades

[Ian]

Hello ashkenaz,

Welcome to the forum!

Interesting question that you pose. I don't use my antique weapons to do any heavy cutting. I don't want to damage them. However, I have tried a number of WWII-era and later blades on various cutting chores and they perform well. Hardening of the steel edge is variable but I have not found any failures/breakages yet.

Are you referring to some of the modern reproductions perhaps? I view these as largely decorative.

Ian

[ashkenaz]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hello ashkenaz,

Welcome to the forum!

Interesting question that you pose. I don't use my antique weapons to do any heavy cutting. I don't want to damage them. However, I have tried a number of WWII-era and later blades on various cutting chores and they perform well. Hardening of the steel edge is variable but I have not found any failures/breakages yet.

Are you referring to some of the modern reproductions perhaps? I view these as largely decorative.

Ian

Eee... no, speaking strictly of historical blades.

There's a narrative going on around that the only effective Filipino blades are almost exclusively, if not literally exclusively, Moro blades.

It's been popping in and out on some websites by a few users.

""Notice how most of the good weapons from the Philippines are all Moro made""

""lmao Filipinos wish they could be as accomplished as the Moros in making swords and weapons. Its been reported that Filipino made weapons have always been inferior to Moro made weapons. Filipinos made soft iron weapons that broke and dented after a few times of use. Even aztec weapons are better than that.""

There are a few users I've seen on a few comment sections convinced by this. As someone who has also himself witnessed beforehand, well made antique Filipino blades, I highly doubt these claims myself, if I lack the justification to refute this, there could be a massive spread of misinformation that no one will be able to control for a while.

[Ian]

Ashkenaz,

I don't know who said these things but I think they are mistaken. There are some fine Visayan and Tagalog knives around, not to mention Ilokano, Ifugao, Bicolano, etc. The T'boli make excellent blades too. Not very well informed comments that you quote IMO.

Ian.

[Timo Nieminen]

I can see where people might get the idea from. I'm often impressed by the quality of the metalwork on Moro blades. Laminated construction so that a soft body supports a very hard edge and stops cracks from spreading when that very hard edge cracks in use, superb sharp long-lasting edges. Often decorative pattern-welding. The construction quality of the blades, and their artistry, is on a par with that of excellent Japanese katana, superb early Medieval pattern-welded swords, and top-quality Chinese swords (harder to compare objectively with crucible steel/wootz swords, since they're made quite differently, but you could add them too). Since Japanese blades are often of such quality that they attract "these are the best blades in the whole world" fanboyism, it shouldn't be too surprising to see similar for Moro swords. Of course, one also needs some ignorance of the quality of other people's excellent swords, and it's helped along by a good dose of nationalism and/or racism (including 2nd hand nationalism/racism).

That said, there are Luzon and Visayan blades with that same level of quality. What do these people compare? Are they comparing superb 19th century Moro blades with post WW2 tourist bolos? I know I haven't been impressed by the average quality of the post-WW2 Moro kris (including tourist specials). Is it just the magic of "Moro"? (Note that a significant part of arnis/escrima/kali is marketed as "Moro", at least implicitly, with practitioners posing for photos with kris or barong in hand, despite this family of martial arts being historically anti-Moro.)

For sure, a statement like "the only effective Filipino blades are almost exclusively, if not literally exclusively, Moro blades" is not true. While some cheap bolos are junk, many are excellent work knives. If somebody's grandmother has used her Igorot bolo as a work knife for decades and it's still going strong, it is certainly an effective blade. One could, as a matter of taste, condemn it as ugly, but to call it ineffective, weak, soft, fragile, junk, or such - not at all. Same thing for many other work knives. (Tourist knives/swords, OTOH, are often of rather poor quality.)

[kai]

Since Japanese blades are often of such quality that they attract "these are the best blades in the whole world" fanboyism, it shouldn't be too surprising to see similar for Moro swords. Of course, one also needs some ignorance of the quality of other people's excellent swords

I'm with Timo. For every excellent katana there were dozens of average examples produced and a considerable amount of rather crappy katana blades...

The same can be found for many other cultures all across the globe.

That said, there are Luzon and Visayan blades with that same level of quality. What do these people compare? Are they comparing superb 19th century Moro blades with post WW2 tourist bolos? I know I haven't been impressed by the average quality of the post-WW2 Moro kris (including tourist specials).

And there certainly are also antique Moro kris of rather poor workmanship, too. Not everbody can afford top notch craftsmanship, in any culture.

Is it just the magic of "Moro"? (Note that a significant part of arnis/escrima/kali is marketed as "Moro", at least implicitly, with practitioners posing for photos with kris or barong in hand, despite this family of martial arts being historically anti-Moro.)

Some of the displayed ignorance is really sad!

The Lumad, the Visayans and some of the communities of southern Luzon actually had to literally fend off the Moro raiders for centuries; it was them rather than the Spaniards who stood their ground!

A considerable part of the Moro economy was based on a predatory life style; raiders sure appreciate high quality "tools" and also have the means to spend considerable amounts for their blades. I certainly would not be surprised if any of the Moro peoples were shown to having had higher quality blades on average than, for example, Visayan communities. However, it does not follow that high-end Moro blades surpassed high-end Visayan blades. And whatever quality the blades of each side might have had, the outcomes over much of the historic time were not necessarily in favor of the Moro, despite their undeniable warrior skills...

Regards,
Kai

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by kai

I'm with Timo. For every excellent katana there were dozens of average examples produced and a considerable amount of rather crappy katana blades...

The same can be found for many other cultures all across the globe.



And there certainly are also antique Moro kris of rather poor workmanship, too. Not everbody can afford top notch craftsmanship, in any culture.



Some of the displayed ignorance is really sad!

The Lumad, the Visayans and some of the communities of southern Luzon actually had to literally fend off the Moro raiders for centuries; it was them rather than the Spaniards who stood their ground!

A considerable part of the Moro economy was based on a predatory life style; raiders sure appreciate high quality "tools" and also have the means to spend considerable amounts for their blades. I certainly would not be surprised if any of the Moro peoples were shown to having had higher quality blades on average than, for example, Visayan communities. However, it does not follow that high-end Moro blades surpassed high-end Visayan blades. And whatever quality the blades of each side might have had, the outcomes over much of the historic time were not necessarily in favor of the Moro, despite their undeniable warrior skills...

Regards,
Kai

i think the original poster was asking about modern made knives.
and in generally the muslims in the south have a good deal more martial culture than the rest of the phillipines. for the average phillipino bolos are just tools and cheap disposable ones at that.. there is a few collectors and people interested but they are a small minority..
ifugao for example like them but mostly as tools so the quality of their knives is generally good but its very.. basic they make a few styles and they use them for work not to impress.

in the past there was a big knife culture but over tie in the phillipines with poverty and decline of a the colonial society along with decline of the native material culture its pretty much dead. nobody is strutting round with the latest bolo on to show of any more..

but in plces like malaysia and indonesia there is still a big culture around kris knives and such ect..
its unfortunate in the phillipines its in such a decline..

some knives for example in panay are basically good solid work knives.. but there is no superior knives sold either.. the worst quality is quite good and functional and there is nothing but work tools.. the locals were shocked i would have any interest in knives at all,
with the muslim groups in the south they immediately prick up their interest when you mention you like knives and many people have old knives they keep from their family.. big difference.
its interesting too how there has been such a decline to the point that in some areas the pepole forgot how to split rattan and use "plastic rattan" instead.. or they stopped working with animal horn all together and you see the horns unused,

ive been to many knife making areas of the phillipines and in some areas there is more makers than customers then in other areas there is few makers and more cusotmers ect..

phillipinos dont want to do manual work in fact in all over asia manual workers are just considered stupid or foolish ect for doing such difficult things its like the reverse of northern european culture where the hard working guy is the good example.. im really shocked when somebody is ashamed that their parents are blacksmiths ect and that a "good job in the city"
and generally knife making is a poor "dirty" job and probably one of the lowest professions. which is really a shame. .. and people just dont value it. it dosnt hold the cultural prestige a knife or weapon maker holds in bali for example where they are linked to religion
a general lack of pride in something kills it , just like wood working and metal casting also are lowest of the low jobs.. good job its work for an american or european company with benefits or work in the government where you can snag a bit of graft.


they should really make some national association of knife makers or blacksmiths and have a registry of all places where knives are made ect as its one of the few ethnically distinct cultural and regional things that survive and its interesting.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

i think the original poster was asking about modern made knives.

No, he was asking about antique blades, look post #13.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by ashkenaz

... There are a few users I've seen on a few comment sections convinced by this. As someone who has also himself witnessed beforehand, well made antique Filipino blades, I highly doubt these claims myself, if I lack the justification to refute this, there could be a massive spread of misinformation that no one will be able to control for a while.

Ashkenaz,

I hope that some of the comments here will help you change people's minds about the quality of Filipino sandata, and convince them that excellent edged weapons were made by non-Moro groups for many centuries. How else would they have survived Moro attacks over the years?

While acknowledging that Moro weapons were often of fine quality, those of other Filipino groups need to be respected too.

Ian.

[Battara]

Maraming Salamat Ian!.............and well said!

[Ian]

Walang anuman kong kaibigan! You're welcome Battara.