Cirebon hilt?

David · 28th November 2017, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

This is indeed an interesting question and perhaps one we can only speculate about. At the risk of making a cross-cultural faux pas, as clearly the diffferences between Eastern and Western thought are vast, we might compare concepts of demonology in such renaissance era writings at the Key of Solomon and the Lesser Key of Solomon (which make claims, however spurious, of dating back to the biblical king himself). These books deal with sigils and signs used to call various demons and put them under human command to to the bidding of the conjurer. Yes, perhaps a dangerous and reckless endeavor. But perhaps the idea is somewhat similar, that these Javanese demons, raksasa and otherwise, can but controlled symbolically in these represented forms to protect and serve their human masters. Maybe an off-base idea, but an notion none the less.

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2017, 07:50 PM

Jean, Minat Jenggul is something you hear linked to the wayang. As a direct translation it can be understood as "appropriate/suitable/right/correct - leader/ top man/boss), but I am uncertain exactly how it is used in the wayang. I find wayang pretty boring, probably because I cannot follow the language real well, the dalangs mix up archaic language with modern Javanese at all levels or even BI and break off in the middle of stories to make jokes and comments about current affairs. For me, the whole thing gets very confusing.

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2017, 07:59 PM

I believe that it is pretty well established that the figural hilts serve a protective function, whether demon, ancestor, historic or mythical personage, or deity, they are all there to protect the sacred keris.

The keris itself, that is, the wilah, can be viewed in a similar way to the Meru, or shrine, itself symbolic of Mt. Meru and along with all of the other relationships, so it makes sense to have something to protect the wilah against possible entry by evil elements.

Its a similar idea to the protective lions at the entry to temples in other parts of Asia.

David · 29th November 2017, 12:56 PM

This little fellow showed up in another forum i attend and i note some particular similarities, especially the patterns displayed in the carving on the back side. It was presented as a South Thai keris, which it well may be, but i suspect the hilt might well be from Cirebon.

David · 30th November 2017, 08:14 PM

I am curious what you folks think about the origin of the hilt i last posted. The pattern on the back is very similar to Athanase North Coast hilt, but the eyes, head shape seem to indeed reflect some Thai elements. So is this one also North Coast of could it be native to South Thailand?

A. G. Maisey · 30th November 2017, 11:02 PM

David, based upon what I believe I can see in the pic, if I were to be presented with this hilt on an older Javanese keris, I think I'd probably be inclined to accept it as Javanese.

However, having said that, there are elements in both style and execution that I have not seen previously in hilts that I know to be Javanese.

I have very little knowledge of old Siamese art motifs, or of art motifs and execution in all the other parts of SE Asia, my knowledge of these areas is only general knowledge, not specialist knowledge.

In this sort of situation I prefer not to give an opinion.

What you have to go on is somebody else's opinion, so the way I'd describe it would be:- "--- attributed to ---"

rasjid · 7th December 2017, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am curious what you folks think about the origin of the hilt i last posted. The pattern on the back is very similar to Athanase North Coast hilt, but the eyes, head shape seem to indeed reflect some Thai elements. So is this one also North Coast of could it be native to South Thailand?

Hi David, i agree that some carving especialy di back or lower back hilt is much similiar to indonesian cirebon hilts. Some design also found on the cirebon selut.
But the front face is indeed thai elements?
I will try get some photos of mine as well

Athanase · 1st January 2018, 11:30 PM

Two other kriss of Cirebon of my collection.
The first one, very finely sculptured reminds me, in the posture of the body and the arms, the handle of the South of Sumatra.

29th November 2017, 12:56 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	This little fellow showed up in another forum i attend and i note some particular similarities, especially the patterns displayed in the carving on the back side. It was presented as a South Thai keris, which it well may be, but i suspect the hilt might well be from Cirebon. Attached Images Last edited by David; 30th November 2017 at 02:56 PM.

1st January 2018, 11:30 PM	#8
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	Two other kriss of Cirebon of my collection. The first one, very finely sculptured reminds me, in the posture of the body and the arms, the handle of the South of Sumatra. Attached Images Last edited by Athanase; 1st January 2018 at 11:41 PM.

28th November 2017, 07:50 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, Minat Jenggul is something you hear linked to the wayang. As a direct translation it can be understood as "appropriate/suitable/right/correct - leader/ top man/boss), but I am uncertain exactly how it is used in the wayang. I find wayang pretty boring, probably because I cannot follow the language real well, the dalangs mix up archaic language with modern Javanese at all levels or even BI and break off in the middle of stories to make jokes and comments about current affairs. For me, the whole thing gets very confusing.

28th November 2017, 07:59 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I believe that it is pretty well established that the figural hilts serve a protective function, whether demon, ancestor, historic or mythical personage, or deity, they are all there to protect the sacred keris. The keris itself, that is, the wilah, can be viewed in a similar way to the Meru, or shrine, itself symbolic of Mt. Meru and along with all of the other relationships, so it makes sense to have something to protect the wilah against possible entry by evil elements. Its a similar idea to the protective lions at the entry to temples in other parts of Asia.

30th November 2017, 08:14 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I am curious what you folks think about the origin of the hilt i last posted. The pattern on the back is very similar to Athanase North Coast hilt, but the eyes, head shape seem to indeed reflect some Thai elements. So is this one also North Coast of could it be native to South Thailand?

30th November 2017, 11:02 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, based upon what I believe I can see in the pic, if I were to be presented with this hilt on an older Javanese keris, I think I'd probably be inclined to accept it as Javanese. However, having said that, there are elements in both style and execution that I have not seen previously in hilts that I know to be Javanese. I have very little knowledge of old Siamese art motifs, or of art motifs and execution in all the other parts of SE Asia, my knowledge of these areas is only general knowledge, not specialist knowledge. In this sort of situation I prefer not to give an opinion. What you have to go on is somebody else's opinion, so the way I'd describe it would be:- "--- attributed to ---"