The fleur de lis ... in a wider spectrum

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2017, 06:37 AM

It seems there has been a great deal of discussion and consternation over the symbolism of the fleur de lis, and which has been a topic in a couple of concurrent threads. It is good to have this thread to discuss the broader symbolic and historic values of the FDL (fluer de lis) without major detraction from the central topics of the other threads.

While it is of course most commonly recognized that the fleur de lis is readily acknowledged as the most prevalent symbol of France, it seems that it has been present in many other symbolic and heraldic contexts outside France.

For our purposes, one of the key factors bringing our attention to the FDL, has been how it applies to presence on weaponry as motif or other markings. While the history is of course intriguing, in the instances of weapons being examined, its more immediate parlance is more pertinent than the broader history of the FDL. For example its use on English blades.

What has been shown in discussions is that the mark of the FDL on a blade need not signify it is necessarily French, though that instance may be of course compelling.

With that in mind, the case of the FDL symbolically may also well have religious connotation rather than national, as in Christian symbolism, the FDL often is referring to the Virgin Mary, and the three petals the Holy Trinity. This context is well shown by Ibrahiim in his entry (#3).

We have seen that the FDL symbolically is seen in heraldic context in many countries beyond France including the Balkans, Italy and Portugal. With the deeper antiquity of the symbol quite unclear, it seems that mostly medieval period representations and apocryphal lore leave mostly clouded perspective on the development or earliest use of the FDL.

These factors as noted, suggest that the presence of the FDL on a weapon, there are certainly other mitigating elements which must be considered beyond the FDL itself, such as well shown in the example of the architectural context shown by Madnum in the previous post.

fernando · 27th November 2017, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems there has been a great deal of discussion and consternation over the symbolism of the fleur de lis, and which has been a topic in a couple of concurrent threads. It is good to have this thread to discuss the broader symbolic and historic values of the FDL (fluer de lis) without major detraction from the central topics of the other threads.

Dear Jim, where you find consternation, i would not

.
This thread was indeed started to 'make a case' in that, the all time iris/lily symbol was present, for one, in armour, other than a mark on sword blades, which virtual connotation might have in several cases been relegated to less, may i say, romantic horizons, like those of an appealing trade mark. Notwithstanding (my) unknown evidence that ancient swords already carried this symbol; and that would be my ignorance ... always correctable

.
Hence this not been an arms related topic but, nevertheless, an armour related one

.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2017, 10:59 PM

Its all in perception. While I see the thread on the FDL here as extremely informational, especially with the initial material on this symbol in use in Portugal indeed the topic could be perceived by some as historical or heraldic, and perhaps not related to weapons.

However, indeed the discussion on the FDL is pertinent toward weaponry as armorial bearings are among the varied symbolism which might be represented using this particular symbol. We have established in some of the discussions mentioned on other threads that actually while the FDL is almost instantly associated with France, it was clearly used in other contexts in many representations.

In some discussions, these aspects of variation might be perceived as distracting in examination of a particular weapon, despite those aspects being factors in evaluating the proper context as applied.

It does seem that in discussions, those reading will often see elements brought in as relevant or perhaps not, just as the character of the discussion may seem one way or another.

I think sometimes certain details can sometimes be lost when important material concerned on a topic is amidst a discussion under another heading and as in this case, it is more directly accessible.

fernando · 28th November 2017, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Its all in perception.

If i may Jim, not so in perception, judging by your granting it different perspectives yourself. But i did my best, atempting that this topic comprehension was granted by its title.
But thinking of perception, i take it for me that it resides in the same tenure as discernment; a major key to open the antechamber of lucidity, with which one perceives the degree of distraction (or detraction as per #7) and such other fluctuations.

Best

Victrix · 28th November 2017, 05:00 PM

Perhaps someone familiar with sword makers’ marks from Toledo can explain why one mark associated with Juan Martinez is what appears to be a fleur-de-lis? Did he have French origins or does it symbolize something other than France? Some argue that this was not his mark, but some other unknown blade smith. What differentiates this mark from Martinez’s often copied half moon mark?

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/54821/WA3...uan-Mart_I.pdf

fernando · 28th November 2017, 06:03 PM

Hi Victrix,
As exposed in current discussions, it is only that the fleur-de-lis achieved more popularity in France and not that it necessarily has to do only with that nation.
In the case of Spanish sword smiths, as in this case, you may relate such symbol with the heraldry of Spain, where the arms of the Bourbons figure in the Spanish flag.
Concerning the for-the-lis symbol in Juan Martinez blades, there is old solid evidence that he (also) used this mark. Whether it was his personal symbol, a quality seal or the mark of his status of ESPADERO DEL REY, a honorific title for smiths granted by the crown, is subject of discussion held in THIS THREAD, namely in post #3.

.

Victrix · 28th November 2017, 06:57 PM

Thank you Fernando, that’s most helpful. I take it that this coat of arms for Spain dates to around the year 1700 when Philip, Duke of Anjou became king Philip V of Spain?

28th November 2017, 05:00 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Perhaps someone familiar with sword makers’ marks from Toledo can explain why one mark associated with Juan Martinez is what appears to be a fleur-de-lis? Did he have French origins or does it symbolize something other than France? Some argue that this was not his mark, but some other unknown blade smith. What differentiates this mark from Martinez’s often copied half moon mark? http://rcin.org.pl/Content/54821/WA3...uan-Mart_I.pdf Attached Images

28th November 2017, 06:03 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Victrix, As exposed in current discussions, it is only that the fleur-de-lis achieved more popularity in France and not that it necessarily has to do only with that nation. In the case of Spanish sword smiths, as in this case, you may relate such symbol with the heraldry of Spain, where the arms of the Bourbons figure in the Spanish flag. Concerning the for-the-lis symbol in Juan Martinez blades, there is old solid evidence that he (also) used this mark. Whether it was his personal symbol, a quality seal or the mark of his status of ESPADERO DEL REY, a honorific title for smiths granted by the crown, is subject of discussion held in THIS THREAD, namely in post #3. . Attached Images

27th November 2017, 06:37 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,590	It seems there has been a great deal of discussion and consternation over the symbolism of the fleur de lis, and which has been a topic in a couple of concurrent threads. It is good to have this thread to discuss the broader symbolic and historic values of the FDL (fluer de lis) without major detraction from the central topics of the other threads. While it is of course most commonly recognized that the fleur de lis is readily acknowledged as the most prevalent symbol of France, it seems that it has been present in many other symbolic and heraldic contexts outside France. For our purposes, one of the key factors bringing our attention to the FDL, has been how it applies to presence on weaponry as motif or other markings. While the history is of course intriguing, in the instances of weapons being examined, its more immediate parlance is more pertinent than the broader history of the FDL. For example its use on English blades. What has been shown in discussions is that the mark of the FDL on a blade need not signify it is necessarily French, though that instance may be of course compelling. With that in mind, the case of the FDL symbolically may also well have religious connotation rather than national, as in Christian symbolism, the FDL often is referring to the Virgin Mary, and the three petals the Holy Trinity. This context is well shown by Ibrahiim in his entry (#3). We have seen that the FDL symbolically is seen in heraldic context in many countries beyond France including the Balkans, Italy and Portugal. With the deeper antiquity of the symbol quite unclear, it seems that mostly medieval period representations and apocryphal lore leave mostly clouded perspective on the development or earliest use of the FDL. These factors as noted, suggest that the presence of the FDL on a weapon, there are certainly other mitigating elements which must be considered beyond the FDL itself, such as well shown in the example of the architectural context shown by Madnum in the previous post.

27th November 2017, 10:59 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,590	Its all in perception. While I see the thread on the FDL here as extremely informational, especially with the initial material on this symbol in use in Portugal indeed the topic could be perceived by some as historical or heraldic, and perhaps not related to weapons. However, indeed the discussion on the FDL is pertinent toward weaponry as armorial bearings are among the varied symbolism which might be represented using this particular symbol. We have established in some of the discussions mentioned on other threads that actually while the FDL is almost instantly associated with France, it was clearly used in other contexts in many representations. In some discussions, these aspects of variation might be perceived as distracting in examination of a particular weapon, despite those aspects being factors in evaluating the proper context as applied. It does seem that in discussions, those reading will often see elements brought in as relevant or perhaps not, just as the character of the discussion may seem one way or another. I think sometimes certain details can sometimes be lost when important material concerned on a topic is amidst a discussion under another heading and as in this case, it is more directly accessible.

28th November 2017, 06:57 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Thank you Fernando, that’s most helpful. I take it that this coat of arms for Spain dates to around the year 1700 when Philip, Duke of Anjou became king Philip V of Spain?