Cirebon hilt?

Marcokeris · 26th November 2017, 09:44 AM

another Cirebon hilt

kai · 26th November 2017, 11:44 AM

Hello Marco,

Very nice hilt, especially the piece from #7! This one appears to be considerably older than the other examples in this thread - maybe you could add close-ups from the other sides here or in a separate thread, please?

Quote:

another Cirebon hilt

What makes you narrow down their origin to Cirebon? (Vs. Banten or any other other cultural centers in the sphere of Sunda influence? Or other busy trading ports along the coast of northern Java, that is?)

And, yes, I'm still hoping on Christmas for finally reading your book...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 26th November 2017, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Very nice hilt, especially the piece from #7! This one appears to be considerably older than the other examples in this thread

Did not saw it posted when writing my comment: Jean's example also seems to be very old...

Regards,
Kai

Marcokeris · 26th November 2017, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Marco,

Very nice hilt, especially the piece from #7! This one appears to be considerably older than the other examples in this thread - maybe you could add close-ups from the other sides here or in a separate thread, please?

What makes you narrow down their origin to Cirebon? (Vs. Banten or any other other cultural centers in the sphere of Sunda influence? Or other busy trading ports along the coast of northern Java, that is?)

And, yes, I'm still hoping on Christmas for finally reading your book...

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai.The hilt was on the pesi of an an old blade with a Cirebon sheath and the Yogya seller had only very old keris all from Cirebon area.

kai · 26th November 2017, 05:55 PM

Hello Marco,

Quote:

The hilt was on the pesi of an an old blade with a Cirebon sheath and the Yogya seller had only very old keris all from Cirebon area.

Was he of Cirebonese ancestry? It's rare to have such info on provenance available, indeed!

Still, these hilt types may not be limited to Cirebon since there are also a bunch of keris from old European collections that combine such hilts with scabbards attributed to other sultanates along the Javanese North coast.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 26th November 2017, 09:06 PM

Jean, in Javanese, "bajang" means "stunted", you mostly hear it in reference to a child:- "bocah bajang", a child who is either small for his age, or who has not yet had his hair cut.

So, if we say "buta bajang" we are actually saying "stunted ogre", ie , a little ogre, which of course this style of hilt is, since it is only of handle size.

David, in Javanese art, and I guess in the art of all the Archipelago, there are certain formal representations of many things that need to be learned, in order to understand what is being represented. I do not know all the formal stylizations for all places within the Archipelago, but I'm not too bad on Javanese and Balinese ones. This hilt under discussion here has fangs.

Yes, I agree, there is some room for interpretation when it comes to understanding iconography, symbolism, and motif, but these things are really a part of the language of an art form, or belief system, or society, or culture, and that language needs to be understood first, before we can interpret. It is just like our normal spoken language:- in English a word can mean one thing, in another language the same word might mean something entirely different.

As to our little ogre's hair, well, it seems to be streaming down from under some sort of head covering, I don't know what. Maybe the carver had a particular personality in mind? Or maybe he just thought a hat would be useful on cold days.

In respect of specific point of origin of these little ogre hilts, I find it very difficult, if not impossible to nail the overall form down to one particular location. Personally, I'm pretty content to have them just about anywhere along the North Coast, into Madura, and up into the highlands of East Jawa.

Just an afterthought here.

There is one case of which I know, where fangs may not be able to be interpreted as fangs, but rather as tusks.

One of Wisnu's (Vishnu's) manifestations is as Varaha (or Baraha) the wild boar. In representations of Varaha he can be shown completely as a wild boar, or as an anthropomorphic form, with the head of a boar --- complete with tusks --- and the body of a man.

Varaha can be depicted with one or more of Wisnu's attributes, and sometimes with a crown.

I have seen Balinese hilts, and other Balinese figures that might be able to be interpreted as Varaha, but I have never seen a Javanese hilt that could comfortably be interpreted in this way.

Still, anything is possible. The Hindu faith, or rather the Javanese-Hindu Faith, is still alive in isolated pockets in Jawa.

David · 27th November 2017, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As to our little ogre's hair, well, it seems to be streaming down from under some sort of head covering, I don't know what. Maybe the carver had a particular personality in mind? Or maybe he just thought a hat would be useful on cold days.

I find it odd that you can assign such import to what you perceive as fangs yet completely dismiss any relevance to such an elaborate head dress. Can't say i have ever seen such a head dress on a Javanese raksasa. I find to hard to believe that it has no significance for this figure. But i suppose sometimes a hat is just a hat.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2017, 08:21 PM

David, the way that we are able to understand anything at all depends upon the things that we have already learnt. Sometimes the things we have learnt provide a direct point of reference that permits us to understand something with a high degree of certainty, at other times the things we have learnt permit us to apply a rational or logical approach to understand by way of reason.

Now, in respect of this hilt figure I have only limited information with which to work, this is because I have never seen a similar figural representation. I do not know who, or what the figure represents, and I do not have sufficient points of reference to permit a rational guess, that is to say a guess that I can defend with logic.

I can see a few things that I do not have any problem with, for instance, I think it is reasonable to assume that we are looking at a Javanese carving; that Javanese carving is figural, and stylistically it conforms with similar Javanese hilt figures that stretch over several hundred years. But I cannot place it within any particular period, nor can I place it at any particular geographic point of origin.

I can see a detail at the corners of the mouth of this figure, that based upon Javanese artistic convention may be interpreted as fangs, or perhaps tusks. The more probable interpretation is fangs, but still, perhaps we are looking at tusks. If tusks, then we need to consider Varaha, but here we have a problem that we cannot really address in a rational way unless we can place a time and place of origin on this little figure. So, on the weight of available evidence, it is probably safer to identify those corner-of-the-mouth details as fangs. If they are fangs, we have a demon, or ogre, or raksasa, or rashasa, or buta, or some other probably rather nasty little piece of work.

Now, the thing that we can see on the figure's head. Exactly what is this thing? Frankly, I do not know. Often in Javanese figural carvings the head-gear of a figure will assist in identification of the figure, and that in turn will assist in dating. This is one of the ways in which we can place approximate dates on the figures that form the hilts of keris sajen. Similarly, in the identification of Balinese hilt figures, the crown or head covering of a figure can assist in identification. But the catch 22 is that we need to ID the head covering, and maybe to ID the head covering we need to ID the figure first.

So, this little figure's head covering:- what is it?

Well, it looks to me as if we can see the hair on top of his head, so perhaps this head thing is not a covering, but rather something like a European crown. Not a Javanese crown, but a European one. Javanese crowns? Well, there was the story of the Golden Crown of Majapahit. Did the carver of this hilt know what a Javanese crown looked like?

Varaha, manifestation of Wisnu. What do we know about Varaha? Well, he saved Bhumi Dewi, the Earth Goddess when the evil Hiranyaksha stole her and hid her. Bhumi Dewi is a consort of Vishnu in his Varaha manifestation. Bhumi Dewi is associated with Lakshmi, Dewi Sri is also associated with Lakshmi, but Dewi Sri pre-dates Hindu influence in Jawa. Lakshmi is associated with wealth and prosperity, Dewi Sri is associated with fertility and the product of the soil, she is the Goddess of the rice, rice grows from the Earth, Mother Earth, Bhumi Dewi, no Mother Earth, no Dewi Sri, no Lakshmi, no prosperity, no wealth, no rice.

So now we can see that Varaha is really a pretty important character, because he saved Bhumi Dewi and restored her to her place, by lifting her on his tusks.
Varaha is often represented in mainstream Hindu art motifs wearing a crown.
Just maybe, if we put a figure of Varaha onto our keris, we will prevent its theft by evil doers.

The above is an example of how guessing at an unknown identity can become utterly rabid.

What I have written above can all be supported, it all links together, but in the context of this figure, it is pure nonsense.

The carver knew what he was carving. I do not. And I do not intend to guess. I can only identify what I can see and understand. What I can see and understand is that this figure is probably Javanese and it has fangs or tusks.

I simply do not know enough to permit me to identify any more than this, nor to hazard guesses at things I do not understand.

26th November 2017, 09:44 AM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	another Cirebon hilt Attached Images

26th November 2017, 09:06 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, in Javanese, "bajang" means "stunted", you mostly hear it in reference to a child:- "bocah bajang", a child who is either small for his age, or who has not yet had his hair cut. So, if we say "buta bajang" we are actually saying "stunted ogre", ie , a little ogre, which of course this style of hilt is, since it is only of handle size. David, in Javanese art, and I guess in the art of all the Archipelago, there are certain formal representations of many things that need to be learned, in order to understand what is being represented. I do not know all the formal stylizations for all places within the Archipelago, but I'm not too bad on Javanese and Balinese ones. This hilt under discussion here has fangs. Yes, I agree, there is some room for interpretation when it comes to understanding iconography, symbolism, and motif, but these things are really a part of the language of an art form, or belief system, or society, or culture, and that language needs to be understood first, before we can interpret. It is just like our normal spoken language:- in English a word can mean one thing, in another language the same word might mean something entirely different. As to our little ogre's hair, well, it seems to be streaming down from under some sort of head covering, I don't know what. Maybe the carver had a particular personality in mind? Or maybe he just thought a hat would be useful on cold days. In respect of specific point of origin of these little ogre hilts, I find it very difficult, if not impossible to nail the overall form down to one particular location. Personally, I'm pretty content to have them just about anywhere along the North Coast, into Madura, and up into the highlands of East Jawa. Just an afterthought here. There is one case of which I know, where fangs may not be able to be interpreted as fangs, but rather as tusks. One of Wisnu's (Vishnu's) manifestations is as Varaha (or Baraha) the wild boar. In representations of Varaha he can be shown completely as a wild boar, or as an anthropomorphic form, with the head of a boar --- complete with tusks --- and the body of a man. Varaha can be depicted with one or more of Wisnu's attributes, and sometimes with a crown. I have seen Balinese hilts, and other Balinese figures that might be able to be interpreted as Varaha, but I have never seen a Javanese hilt that could comfortably be interpreted in this way. Still, anything is possible. The Hindu faith, or rather the Javanese-Hindu Faith, is still alive in isolated pockets in Jawa. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th November 2017 at 09:22 PM.

27th November 2017, 08:21 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, the way that we are able to understand anything at all depends upon the things that we have already learnt. Sometimes the things we have learnt provide a direct point of reference that permits us to understand something with a high degree of certainty, at other times the things we have learnt permit us to apply a rational or logical approach to understand by way of reason. Now, in respect of this hilt figure I have only limited information with which to work, this is because I have never seen a similar figural representation. I do not know who, or what the figure represents, and I do not have sufficient points of reference to permit a rational guess, that is to say a guess that I can defend with logic. I can see a few things that I do not have any problem with, for instance, I think it is reasonable to assume that we are looking at a Javanese carving; that Javanese carving is figural, and stylistically it conforms with similar Javanese hilt figures that stretch over several hundred years. But I cannot place it within any particular period, nor can I place it at any particular geographic point of origin. I can see a detail at the corners of the mouth of this figure, that based upon Javanese artistic convention may be interpreted as fangs, or perhaps tusks. The more probable interpretation is fangs, but still, perhaps we are looking at tusks. If tusks, then we need to consider Varaha, but here we have a problem that we cannot really address in a rational way unless we can place a time and place of origin on this little figure. So, on the weight of available evidence, it is probably safer to identify those corner-of-the-mouth details as fangs. If they are fangs, we have a demon, or ogre, or raksasa, or rashasa, or buta, or some other probably rather nasty little piece of work. Now, the thing that we can see on the figure's head. Exactly what is this thing? Frankly, I do not know. Often in Javanese figural carvings the head-gear of a figure will assist in identification of the figure, and that in turn will assist in dating. This is one of the ways in which we can place approximate dates on the figures that form the hilts of keris sajen. Similarly, in the identification of Balinese hilt figures, the crown or head covering of a figure can assist in identification. But the catch 22 is that we need to ID the head covering, and maybe to ID the head covering we need to ID the figure first. So, this little figure's head covering:- what is it? Well, it looks to me as if we can see the hair on top of his head, so perhaps this head thing is not a covering, but rather something like a European crown. Not a Javanese crown, but a European one. Javanese crowns? Well, there was the story of the Golden Crown of Majapahit. Did the carver of this hilt know what a Javanese crown looked like? Varaha, manifestation of Wisnu. What do we know about Varaha? Well, he saved Bhumi Dewi, the Earth Goddess when the evil Hiranyaksha stole her and hid her. Bhumi Dewi is a consort of Vishnu in his Varaha manifestation. Bhumi Dewi is associated with Lakshmi, Dewi Sri is also associated with Lakshmi, but Dewi Sri pre-dates Hindu influence in Jawa. Lakshmi is associated with wealth and prosperity, Dewi Sri is associated with fertility and the product of the soil, she is the Goddess of the rice, rice grows from the Earth, Mother Earth, Bhumi Dewi, no Mother Earth, no Dewi Sri, no Lakshmi, no prosperity, no wealth, no rice. So now we can see that Varaha is really a pretty important character, because he saved Bhumi Dewi and restored her to her place, by lifting her on his tusks. Varaha is often represented in mainstream Hindu art motifs wearing a crown. Just maybe, if we put a figure of Varaha onto our keris, we will prevent its theft by evil doers. The above is an example of how guessing at an unknown identity can become utterly rabid. What I have written above can all be supported, it all links together, but in the context of this figure, it is pure nonsense. The carver knew what he was carving. I do not. And I do not intend to guess. I can only identify what I can see and understand. What I can see and understand is that this figure is probably Javanese and it has fangs or tusks. I simply do not know enough to permit me to identify any more than this, nor to hazard guesses at things I do not understand.