Cirebon hilt?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Ok thank-you.
It's very good news, I'm very happy because I bought it at a very moderate price from blurred photo. It was a winning bet.
Here is an overview of the kriss. The blade presents 2 different pamors :
- the one in "triangle" which is very visible at the base,
- and another almost invisible on the blade and which seems to be of the type Uler Lulut ?? or Segara Wedi ??

Hi Anastase,
The blade is original and old, and typical of the Northern/ West Java area with its 9 very shallow waves but the pamor pattern looks too indistinct on the pic (too much light reflection) for being able to confirm your identification.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

In Javanese/Balinese art motifs, a figure with fangs is identifiable as demon.

Raksasa is a male ogre, raksasi is a female ogre, an ogre is actually a monster that eats human flesh.

Thus when we call these types of hilts "raksasa" we're being pretty general, its pretty loose terminology.Maybe a bit more "Collectorese".

If we look at origins and turn to Hindu beliefs, what we find is that rakshasas & rakshasis are shape shifters, and not all of them are necessarily bad guys.

If we were going to get really pedantic we probably should only use the term "raksasa" for demons that haunt cemeteries and eat human flesh.

Anyway, Athanase's hilt has got fangs, thus it is a demon. Raksasa is probably OK. If we don't call him a raksasa, what do we call him?

Squatting ancestor with fangs Jean? Interesting idea.

Ancestors eventually become one with their deities, and often are depicted in pit burial mode. But with fangs?

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

I think we've visited this previously.

[Marcokeris]

another Cirebon

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In Javanese/Balinese art motifs, a figure with fangs is identifiable as demon.

Raksasa is a male ogre, raksasi is a female ogre, an ogre is actually a monster that eats human flesh.

Thus when we call these types of hilts "raksasa" we're being pretty general, its pretty loose terminology.Maybe a bit more "Collectorese".

If we look at origins and turn to Hindu beliefs, what we find is that rakshasas & rakshasis are shape shifters, and not all of them are necessarily bad guys.

If we were going to get really pedantic we probably should only use the term "raksasa" for demons that haunt cemeteries and eat human flesh.

Anyway, Athanase's hilt has got fangs, thus it is a demon. Raksasa is probably OK. If we don't call him a raksasa, what do we call him?

Squatting ancestor with fangs Jean? Interesting idea.

Ancestors eventually become one with their deities, and often are depicted in pit burial mode. But with fangs?

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

I think we've visited this previously.

Thank you Alan, and demon is indeed a better generic term than raksasa or ancestor. Do you know what "buta bajang" (the local name for these squatting demon hilts) mean?
I attach the pic of an old raksasa hilt (holding a human arm in his left hand).
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In Javanese/Balinese art motifs, a figure with fangs is identifiable as demon.

Raksasa is a male ogre, raksasi is a female ogre, an ogre is actually a monster that eats human flesh.

Thus when we call these types of hilts "raksasa" we're being pretty general, its pretty loose terminology.Maybe a bit more "Collectorese".

If we look at origins and turn to Hindu beliefs, what we find is that rakshasas & rakshasis are shape shifters, and not all of them are necessarily bad guys.

If we were going to get really pedantic we probably should only use the term "raksasa" for demons that haunt cemeteries and eat human flesh.

Anyway, Athanase's hilt has got fangs, thus it is a demon. Raksasa is probably OK. If we don't call him a raksasa, what do we call him?

Squatting ancestor with fangs Jean? Interesting idea.

Ancestors eventually become one with their deities, and often are depicted in pit burial mode. But with fangs?

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

I think we've visited this previously.

Well Alan, you bring up exactly why i asked the question of Jean to begin with. When figures begin to attract i suppose there is always room for interpretation. Fangs? I'm not convinced i am seeing fangs on Athanase's figure. Yes there are what appear to be a couple of curved shapes near the corners of the mouth, but i'm really just not sure. Are they intended to be fangs? Maybe, maybe not. If i saw better photos or had it in hand perhaps i would see it differently.
And then there is the head dress. I just don't think i have ever seen a raksasa (or what we collectors generally consider raksasa) with such an elaborate head dress or crown. It's usually just long hair.

[Rick]

A couple of observations about the original hilt:

The little finger of the right hand seems disproportionately long with a wicked looking hooked nail.

What could be the semi spherical object be that is cradled in the right arm; the head of a child?

[Athanase]

Originally Posted by Rick

What could be the semi spherical object be that is cradled in the right arm; the head of a child?

For me it's his knee.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Rick

A couple of observations about the original hilt:


What could be the semi spherical object be that is cradled in the right arm; the head of a child?

Hi Rick,
It seems to be his knee but it is not very clear as the foot is not shown
Regards

[kai]

Hello Rick and David,

That's definitely his knee: The traditional position of the right hand is the shin close to the knee (sometimes it pretty much covers the knee, too); the lower leg is visible (with only the feet hidden among the foliage). [The left hands usually rests on top of the left knee though.]

The pinky of the right hand always shows an extension which should be the long finger nail (these tend to curl towards the tip when growing longer; in this carving it's more pronounced than usual). [On the left hand, the thumb usually shows what seems to be an extended finger nail...]

Those are definitely fangs if you compare them with less stylized examples; even in this more stylized representation the animal-like, flared lips are clearly visible around the fangs (indicated by the traditional "striped" area).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So why are these demons used as hilt figures? Are they all demons? Maybe they're guardians? Or maybe they really are demons and their purpose is keep the really bad guys away from the sacred Meru.Lots of room there for discussion.

This is indeed an interesting question and perhaps one we can only speculate about. At the risk of making a cross-cultural faux pas, as clearly the diffferences between Eastern and Western thought are vast, we might compare concepts of demonology in such renaissance era writings at the Key of Solomon and the Lesser Key of Solomon (which make claims, however spurious, of dating back to the biblical king himself). These books deal with sigils and signs used to call various demons and put them under human command to to the bidding of the conjurer. Yes, perhaps a dangerous and reckless endeavor. But perhaps the idea is somewhat similar, that these Javanese demons, raksasa and otherwise, can but controlled symbolically in these represented forms to protect and serve their human masters. Maybe an off-base idea, but an notion none the less.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, Minat Jenggul is something you hear linked to the wayang. As a direct translation it can be understood as "appropriate/suitable/right/correct - leader/ top man/boss), but I am uncertain exactly how it is used in the wayang. I find wayang pretty boring, probably because I cannot follow the language real well, the dalangs mix up archaic language with modern Javanese at all levels or even BI and break off in the middle of stories to make jokes and comments about current affairs. For me, the whole thing gets very confusing.

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe that it is pretty well established that the figural hilts serve a protective function, whether demon, ancestor, historic or mythical personage, or deity, they are all there to protect the sacred keris.

The keris itself, that is, the wilah, can be viewed in a similar way to the Meru, or shrine, itself symbolic of Mt. Meru and along with all of the other relationships, so it makes sense to have something to protect the wilah against possible entry by evil elements.

Its a similar idea to the protective lions at the entry to temples in other parts of Asia.

[David]

This little fellow showed up in another forum i attend and i note some particular similarities, especially the patterns displayed in the carving on the back side. It was presented as a South Thai keris, which it well may be, but i suspect the hilt might well be from Cirebon.

[David]

I am curious what you folks think about the origin of the hilt i last posted. The pattern on the back is very similar to Athanase North Coast hilt, but the eyes, head shape seem to indeed reflect some Thai elements. So is this one also North Coast of could it be native to South Thailand?