Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[urbanspaceman]

Ref. Previous post from Hotspur:
thank-you Glen, I will set-to and look at the links you have provided.
I need this kind of help because, up until the summer of this year, I knew absolutely nothing about swords, sword-making and sword fighting; and the only thing I knew about blade-making was what had been learned by osmosis - as it is almost impossible to avoid documentaries and articles on Japanese blade-making of the 1500s onwards.
With regard to WKC: Pooley are determined to convince us that they evolved out of Wilkinson-Sword, which they probably did, but not to the extent they profess. Andre Wilms told me that they got the majority of the tooling and equipment, but he would not comment on the 'blade roll forge' Fritz Weyersburg acquired around 1880; and the Klingenmuseum denied all knowledge of it too. I must explore this Prosser connection: thank-you.
Horology, of course, stimulated our catch-up, of 3,000 odd years, on the Indians and Sri Lankans. It's no distance from Shotley Bridge to Doncaster; although I understand Huntsman didn't make his final progress until he moved to Sheffield. Even so, I am certain there was a constant movement of craftsmen and ideas around this small geographical area during the 1700s.
As I said in my previous post: a Robert Oley was working in Birmingham 1724 - 1732; now how much knowledge and experience could he have transplanted?
Also, Dan Hayward, of Sheffield, was deeply involved in the workings at Shotley Bridge, and was determined to acquire the whole shebang: lock, stock and barrel, in the early 1700s.
Thanks again Glen.

[Hotspur]

A good start for anything regarding the Japanese swords, Rich Stein's pages are excellent.
https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/

The Viking Sword site had been a very early visit I made, along with Stein's pages and other sword related resources.

Another portal is Fordham's
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/sbook.asp

A large collection of links here, another very early bookmark in my lists
http://www.sirclisto.com/

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]

PLEASE See post 13 It refers to the competition and it was when after winning the crown they changed the name of the Sword Inn to the Crown and Crossed Swords. I recall a spurious note about the sword maker turning up...in Birmingham..it wasnt our man...l think Jim refers to this ..but l cant find it...The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??

[urbanspaceman]

[QUOTE=The ceiling stencil is very interesting..not that it is running or flying...Neither is it a bushey tail variant. Could this simply be a dog? Unrelated by pure accident ??[/QUOTE]

I agree Ibrahiim, writers have given much pertinence to this image on the ceiling, but I also feel it is not representative of the fox or the wolf. It is more likely a builder's mark.

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

The business of the competition: I wondered if this was a known historical event that endured into more recent times, rather than the actual occasion when Oley won the crown.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Has anyone ever explained how a mark of quality bestowed by an Archduke in 1349 to a Passau guild ended up more commonly representing Solingen who were both competition and also on the opposite side of the country. It seems to me that the Shotley Bridge story has nearly as much historical beginnings in Germany as it does in England.

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Apropos of the above, I came across this in one of the SB books:

The earliest swordmaking centres of Europe were at Milan,
Brescia, Toledo, Strasburg, Passau and Solingen. The distribution point
was Cologne. The merchants congregated there to take their percentage
and send the blades on in chests or bundles to be furbished in other
towns and countries. If these 'Cologne' swords (as they were called), bore the mark
of the 'Flying Fox' which guaranteed Solingen make, they were enhanced
in value. The mark was not associated with any particular bladesmith
(who always inscribed his own mark on the blade or tang- which is
hidden in the hilt), but was granted to the Armourer's Guild at Passau
by Archduke Albert in 1349 and was subsequently stamped on all
Solingen blades as a mark of excellence. In those days the marking
and stamping on the blades was witnessed in the market place.

It would seem that the blades would already bear the Passau Wolf and the public stamping of bladesmith identity was done in public. Even so, if you are buying a chest of blades (how many blades in a chest?) you would be waiting around some time while each one was stamped.

Salaams Keith~ Therein lies a tale ~ The Shotley wording uses Flying Fox in describing the Solingen animal... It wasn't the bushy tail version... it was the stick-like wolf. The Wolf of Passau. Malleted and chiseled into the blade.

The Bushey tail flying Fox was Samuel Harveys. Birmingham. Initials SH in the body of the fox but not always.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually, as always, a great deal of 'lore' becomes entwined in material compiled on many topics, and one of these greatly effected is the origins and history of the 'running wolf'.
It seems that the generally held idea of Archduke Albert granting the 'wolf' symbol to sword guilds in Passau in 1349 was suggested in Demmin (1877)but it is unclear where he found that data. When Rudolf Cronau wrote his "Geschicte der Solinger Klingenindustrie" (1885) he indicated he had never found proof of such award or association to a guild in this manner.

Passau did however use the rampant wolf as a town arms from c.1460, with its beginnings as such around 1402. It does seem that it was a center for the assembly of mercenary armies, and at some time the incising of a rudimentary rendering of the wolf into blades began being used. This was a kind of imbuement of power and protection for the warriors to use these weapons.
In these times and later, Solingen was producing blades, but as noted, these were sent to nearby Cologne to be mounted and sold as complete swords commonly known as 'Cologne Swords'.

It seems at some point the use of the 'running wolf' of Passau entered the repertoire of Solingen's blade makers. In regard to this, Wagner (Prague, 1967) notes that the 'Passau wolf' mark was used by Wundes (probably Johann Wundes the elder, 1560-1610) for his blade consignments for Passau merchants supplying the mercenary forces of Archduke Leopold V.

It seems the only makers I have found listed to Passau, are the Stantlers, running from early 15th c. through 16th, but they are equally noted to Munich. Among the various marks they used, many spurious of makers of Toledo etc. are noted, but not the running wolf.

The running wolf does however seem to be paired with various magical numbers or sometimes other 'general' marks such as cross and orb.
I am beginning to wonder just how many blades or weapons were indeed produced at Passau, or whether they were simply imported from Solingen or other centers and marked with the magical imbuement of the wolf, and or others.

Such magical and talismanic imbuements were among other forms of amulets also known as 'Passau art' suggesting association with Passau provided protection in battle. Therefore I am thinking that the term 'running wolf of Passau' is simply a descriptive term for the superstitions and notions applied to these crudely incised markings. The fact that they are so dissimilar and often nearly indiscernible is due to the fact they were actually applied in an almost token manner. It was the presence of the mark itself, not its accuracy or character, that mattered.

Later, as the magical tone subsided, it became regarded as a kind of quality mark, whose connotation was carried forward in that manner, in Solingen; later Hounslow.
The British counterpart of the wolf, the fox, may well owe its derivation to the Shakespeare references using the fox term with presumed suggestion of the so called "Passau wolf'. In Birmingham, makers Harvey and Dawes seeking to capitalize on the quality connotation used this in mid 18th c.

We know that the fox with SH was of course probably to Samuel Harvey, but while Dawes was believed to have used the fox as well, we do not know of his name or initials with the fox. Perhaps then those without initials are his.
We know also that Harvey used his name or initials without the fox, and it appears to have ceased being used .

With Shotley Bridge, in the 17th c. according to Aylward (1945, p.33), "...it appears they were importing forgings from Solingen, which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley".
It seems that the running wolf may have still been used by these descendants from Hounslow and their Solingen ancestors as a mark of that quality and heritage, contrary to the notion that they were spurning the codes, oaths or expatriation from it.