Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

Yes and No to all of that~ The story has lies and myth intermixed with half truths and all sorts of counter claims... The sword makers would not want to be implicated in the Jacobite supply of arms as that was the direct route to the executioner. Surely they would not want their swords being found on Jacobite fighters with the Shotley blade mark... The South Sea Co. was about as scurrilous as it could get and involved up to its neck in slavery. There was smuggling going on all over the map..Were the swords made in Solingen stamped with the Passau Wolf before being smuggled and/or done in Shotley Bridge? Was Samuel Harvey and his son Samuel Harvey Jnr. in Birmingham, the only location using the Bushy Tail Fox ? Who was William Harvey?
What machine was used if any to Roll the blades? Rolling Mill? Where is it now? Was there a Colichemarde machine which ground the sword blades ? Was the machine not simply a Rolling Mill ? etc etc. Was grinding only done manually?
These are important questions and are at the heart of the sword making conundrum in England ...

[urbanspaceman]

I'm still nose to the grindstone Ibrahiim.

[urbanspaceman]

I’ve been convinced for some time that the bushy-tailed running fox was first used by the Oleys.
That vendor and auctioneer last year were certain of it.
Oley based the Guild of the Running Fox headquarters in the second Cutler’s Hall he built in 1787.
And I’ve just discovered that a Richard Oley went to work in Birmingham, I think around 1740 but I need to confirm that.
I’m meeting with the keeper of the archives of Shotley Bridge next week: I took a woman along to last week’s meeting and she charmed the pants off him (well, not literally). He’s agreed to allow me access to all the archives that the village has concerning the sword-makers. That’s something John Bygate couldn’t manage.
Surely I can confirm, one way or the other, that Oley used the bushy-tailed running fox first.
Incidentally, it is stated that the SB smiths also used a blade stamp of the crossed swords or the image of a bridge. I suspect we may well find those marks on the tangs of appropriate swords if we could reveal them.
I’m very keen to view this cache of swords in Bowes Museum, but I suspect they will make me jump through hoops and wait till Christmas before they allow me access. I’ve learned that most museums behave that way.
However, as I said earlier this week, you guys are putting everything under the microscope and that is exactly what I need.

[Hotspur]

I am not sure where to start in reply to what I read as quite a diverse bit of rambling but let me post a couple of related thoughts without parsing this past page.

In my own reading and inquiry regarding one Prosser regarding pipe back (quill point) blades, my question was whether rolling mills were being used to form these sword blades. A reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions rolling mills were used primarily for bayonets, well into the 19th century. However, there is a British patent for rolling pipe just about the same timeline and by a Prosser (weird huh?). In yet another discussion with Wilkinson-Latham, he had provided quite a bit of information on Wilkinson blades and although (later 19th century) rolling mills were employed for the reduction of stock thickness, there were many processes preceding and following that passage of steel. These discussions can be found at his profile at Sword Forum International. He also breaks down the timelines of Weyersburg, WKC and the eventual sale of tooling from Wilkinson to WKC.

Regarding hollow blade swords and the high medieval timeline, a fair number of extant examples remain in museums and collections in Europe and the UK. Examined and discussed by the likes of smith Peter Johansson, I am a bit surprised that someone searching the topic is/was unaware. Peter's home page
http://www.peterjohnsson.com/ As youtube takes the fancy of many, there re also video presentations from him found there. One can also follow discussions at discussion boards such those found on www.myarmoury.com.

On a final note, my own thoughts on the trefoil, three edge blades and whether they are the product of rolling mills; I suppose it is possible but when one considers the remaining grinding required after a rough form, wheels must still have been employed. My hunch on the matter is that three wheels were set in such a manner as to accept the blank and the wheels with tension on pivots allow the length to be ground and polished.

Addendum
Noted in my first post(s) in reply to this thread is the British History Online site with copious reference materials and where I had first seen some notes on the Hollow Sword Company. In discussion on the myArmoury forums, Howard Waddell (Albion Swords) mentions in his own research much of what has already been mentioned here in this thread but the bottom line was hollow ground swords being produced with water powered grinding wheels. We often look to the largest possible dimension of tools, when we ought not forget how small tooling was becoming. Food for thought? To me, a menu ranging from horology to engines and general tool making.

Sciences thought to be lost often appear to have never disappeared.

Cheers

Glen Cleeton

[urbanspaceman]

Ref. Previous post from Hotspur:
thank-you Glen, I will set-to and look at the links you have provided.
I need this kind of help because, up until the summer of this year, I knew absolutely nothing about swords, sword-making and sword fighting; and the only thing I knew about blade-making was what had been learned by osmosis - as it is almost impossible to avoid documentaries and articles on Japanese blade-making of the 1500s onwards.
With regard to WKC: Pooley are determined to convince us that they evolved out of Wilkinson-Sword, which they probably did, but not to the extent they profess. Andre Wilms told me that they got the majority of the tooling and equipment, but he would not comment on the 'blade roll forge' Fritz Weyersburg acquired around 1880; and the Klingenmuseum denied all knowledge of it too. I must explore this Prosser connection: thank-you.
Horology, of course, stimulated our catch-up, of 3,000 odd years, on the Indians and Sri Lankans. It's no distance from Shotley Bridge to Doncaster; although I understand Huntsman didn't make his final progress until he moved to Sheffield. Even so, I am certain there was a constant movement of craftsmen and ideas around this small geographical area during the 1700s.
As I said in my previous post: a Robert Oley was working in Birmingham 1724 - 1732; now how much knowledge and experience could he have transplanted?
Also, Dan Hayward, of Sheffield, was deeply involved in the workings at Shotley Bridge, and was determined to acquire the whole shebang: lock, stock and barrel, in the early 1700s.
Thanks again Glen.

[Hotspur]

A good start for anything regarding the Japanese swords, Rich Stein's pages are excellent.
https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/

The Viking Sword site had been a very early visit I made, along with Stein's pages and other sword related resources.

Another portal is Fordham's
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/sbook.asp

A large collection of links here, another very early bookmark in my lists
http://www.sirclisto.com/

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

Every book, article or account I have read to date has all remarked on the same issue: that cessation of warfare over the years had impacted greatly on the business at SB; which implies that they were making most of their money from the supply of battlefield weapons. I have only just seen the relevance of this: duh!!!; it’s remarkable how much I still need to explore.

Incidentally, I’ve also re-discovered this bit of info:
It was during the renovation of Cutlers Hall, when the stencil of what appears to be a "running fox" was found on the wooden ceiling of one room. see image

Did anyone notice the dating of the appearance of a Robert Oley in Birmingham: from 1724 – 1832; the dates must be mixed up because that would make him working for 108 years, unless it was including a son (or a nephew) of the same name.

Finally, the story of an Oley winning a crown for the best sword in England must have a germ of truth about it; is anyone aware of the competition and who, what and where it was?

[IMG]