Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Hotspur · 15th November 2017, 05:43 PM

I still think Matt could sell thousands of bobble heads.

I see the videos and wikis as a place for the interested to begin an understanding but too few are going beyond them.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2017, 07:55 PM

Not wishing to defer this outstanding discussion from the intriguing topic of these English sword makers to the more mundane topic of learning mediums, I simply agree, Wiki and videos along with many other developing technological advances are very much advancing our resources.

Even in the old days in my researching, no papyrus jokes!!!

, as I pored through book after book, the cites and referenced notes were prompts for me to check those cited sources further for context and additional information.
It is no different with Wikipedia or any other medium, and it is quite frankly more expedient to have such resources at ones fingertips than interlibrary loan or searching for books by mail or old book stores.

I agree, too many fall short of further research, as evidenced here many times by participants who do not read previous posts or do not use the easily accessed search function and resources here at hand. It is a matter of personal preference, and choice. People have quite varied ajendas, and if there is too much depth, or not enough, on a topic, the choice is to move past it and to material more to their own level of interest.

Back to the subject at hand, the use of machinery, Sir Richard Burton visited Solingen around 1875, "...the city had not yet been touched by the Industrial Revolution", and he noted 'the hammering and forging are utterly ignorant of progress', revealing his own contempt for the modern affectations of machines.

He notes that tempering is done in water 'as usual' rather than oil.
It was noted that the steam engine had led to many new machines, but despite dislike of the machines by bladesmiths, there was no denial of the opportunities afforded for mass production.

In 1847.....a mechanism for ROLLING BLADES from long strips of steel was introduced, a "painful blow for the old masters".

-"By The Sword", Richard Cohen, 2003, p.119 ('The Great Swordmakers).

It seems odd that the most influential blade making center in the world apparently relied on tried and true old traditional anvil hammering methods this late in time, yet in England this great attention to rolling mills was at hand in the 17th century.

urbanspaceman · 15th November 2017, 08:05 PM

Thank-you Gentlemen, an abundance of pertinent information.

Initially, let me flag the info regarding lead rolling mills, as Vintner was descended from a family of lead mining and processing engineers.

Incidentally, many have posited that Vintner was German, but I can find no trace – anywhere, anytime – of that name being present in Germany (if anybody can, then I will be well pleased); however, I can find Vinton used commonly in Sweden and occasionally in Scandinavia generally, hence my suggestion that he was probably Swedish. The 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth instructed to 'find, mine and process metals countrywide' were not from Germany alone.

Secondly, and just as a side issue: I don't know how many of you have ever witnessed white-hot sheet-metal coming out of a rolling-mill ? It is very scary, especially if you are standing on one of those gantries near the coiling machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuP8L-WppI).
However, in order to roll the shape of a Biscayne blade (are we going to call it that now?) you do-not/cannot use speed, it has to be done slowly with a varied degree of pressure; at least if you are using the machine that I conceived yesterday, which has three round edged wheels (one wider than the other two) that are of varying width around the circumference (which equals the length of the blade) and all three pointing into a central gap through which the hot metal rod is inserted then extruded; the wheels are mounted on axles that are spring loaded and simultaneously turned slowly by hand.
A picture is worth a thousand words, I know, but I'm sure you will understand what I am getting at if you are of a mechanical mind-set.

Incidentally, and apropos of Mat's video: he talks about 15th C. hollow blades, which are a revelation to me; does anyone have any information on these swords?

Also, he keeps referring to 'Hollow Ground' which is a terminology that unfortunately seems to predominate and is probably responsible for the notion that the 'Machine' was a grinding machine and not a rolling mill – of sorts. Perhaps those 15th C. blades were hand ground; I suspect it is more likely they were beaten into shape on an anvil former.

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

urbanspaceman · 15th November 2017, 08:26 PM

About 1880, when over here, Fritz Weyersberg saw, then purchased the patent for a blade roll forge invented in England. Apparently it is still in use at WKC; although Andre Wilms didn't want to talk about it when I asked earlier this year. Coals to Newcastle?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th November 2017, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

Yes and No to all of that~ The story has lies and myth intermixed with half truths and all sorts of counter claims... The sword makers would not want to be implicated in the Jacobite supply of arms as that was the direct route to the executioner. Surely they would not want their swords being found on Jacobite fighters with the Shotley blade mark...

The South Sea Co. was about as scurrilous as it could get and involved up to its neck in slavery. There was smuggling going on all over the map..Were the swords made in Solingen stamped with the Passau Wolf before being smuggled and/or done in Shotley Bridge? Was Samuel Harvey and his son Samuel Harvey Jnr. in Birmingham, the only location using the Bushy Tail Fox ? Who was William Harvey?
What machine was used if any to Roll the blades? Rolling Mill? Where is it now? Was there a Colichemarde machine which ground the sword blades ? Was the machine not simply a Rolling Mill ? etc etc. Was grinding only done manually?
These are important questions and are at the heart of the sword making conundrum in England ...

urbanspaceman · 16th November 2017, 09:18 PM

I'm still nose to the grindstone Ibrahiim.

urbanspaceman · 16th November 2017, 11:09 PM

I’ve been convinced for some time that the bushy-tailed running fox was first used by the Oleys.
That vendor and auctioneer last year were certain of it.
Oley based the Guild of the Running Fox headquarters in the second Cutler’s Hall he built in 1787.
And I’ve just discovered that a Richard Oley went to work in Birmingham, I think around 1740 but I need to confirm that.
I’m meeting with the keeper of the archives of Shotley Bridge next week: I took a woman along to last week’s meeting and she charmed the pants off him (well, not literally). He’s agreed to allow me access to all the archives that the village has concerning the sword-makers. That’s something John Bygate couldn’t manage.
Surely I can confirm, one way or the other, that Oley used the bushy-tailed running fox first.
Incidentally, it is stated that the SB smiths also used a blade stamp of the crossed swords or the image of a bridge. I suspect we may well find those marks on the tangs of appropriate swords if we could reveal them.
I’m very keen to view this cache of swords in Bowes Museum, but I suspect they will make me jump through hoops and wait till Christmas before they allow me access. I’ve learned that most museums behave that way.
However, as I said earlier this week, you guys are putting everything under the microscope and that is exactly what I need.

Hotspur · 17th November 2017, 09:42 AM

I am not sure where to start in reply to what I read as quite a diverse bit of rambling but let me post a couple of related thoughts without parsing this past page.

In my own reading and inquiry regarding one Prosser regarding pipe back (quill point) blades, my question was whether rolling mills were being used to form these sword blades. A reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions rolling mills were used primarily for bayonets, well into the 19th century. However, there is a British patent for rolling pipe just about the same timeline and by a Prosser (weird huh?). In yet another discussion with Wilkinson-Latham, he had provided quite a bit of information on Wilkinson blades and although (later 19th century) rolling mills were employed for the reduction of stock thickness, there were many processes preceding and following that passage of steel. These discussions can be found at his profile at Sword Forum International. He also breaks down the timelines of Weyersburg, WKC and the eventual sale of tooling from Wilkinson to WKC.

Regarding hollow blade swords and the high medieval timeline, a fair number of extant examples remain in museums and collections in Europe and the UK. Examined and discussed by the likes of smith Peter Johansson, I am a bit surprised that someone searching the topic is/was unaware. Peter's home page
http://www.peterjohnsson.com/ As youtube takes the fancy of many, there re also video presentations from him found there. One can also follow discussions at discussion boards such those found on www.myarmoury.com.

On a final note, my own thoughts on the trefoil, three edge blades and whether they are the product of rolling mills; I suppose it is possible but when one considers the remaining grinding required after a rough form, wheels must still have been employed. My hunch on the matter is that three wheels were set in such a manner as to accept the blank and the wheels with tension on pivots allow the length to be ground and polished.

Addendum
Noted in my first post(s) in reply to this thread is the British History Online site with copious reference materials and where I had first seen some notes on the Hollow Sword Company. In discussion on the myArmoury forums, Howard Waddell (Albion Swords) mentions in his own research much of what has already been mentioned here in this thread but the bottom line was hollow ground swords being produced with water powered grinding wheels. We often look to the largest possible dimension of tools, when we ought not forget how small tooling was becoming. Food for thought? To me, a menu ranging from horology to engines and general tool making.

Sciences thought to be lost often appear to have never disappeared.

Cheers

Glen Cleeton

urbanspaceman · 17th November 2017, 11:05 AM

Ref. Previous post from Hotspur:
thank-you Glen, I will set-to and look at the links you have provided.
I need this kind of help because, up until the summer of this year, I knew absolutely nothing about swords, sword-making and sword fighting; and the only thing I knew about blade-making was what had been learned by osmosis - as it is almost impossible to avoid documentaries and articles on Japanese blade-making of the 1500s onwards.
With regard to WKC: Pooley are determined to convince us that they evolved out of Wilkinson-Sword, which they probably did, but not to the extent they profess. Andre Wilms told me that they got the majority of the tooling and equipment, but he would not comment on the 'blade roll forge' Fritz Weyersburg acquired around 1880; and the Klingenmuseum denied all knowledge of it too. I must explore this Prosser connection: thank-you.
Horology, of course, stimulated our catch-up, of 3,000 odd years, on the Indians and Sri Lankans. It's no distance from Shotley Bridge to Doncaster; although I understand Huntsman didn't make his final progress until he moved to Sheffield. Even so, I am certain there was a constant movement of craftsmen and ideas around this small geographical area during the 1700s.
As I said in my previous post: a Robert Oley was working in Birmingham 1724 - 1732; now how much knowledge and experience could he have transplanted?
Also, Dan Hayward, of Sheffield, was deeply involved in the workings at Shotley Bridge, and was determined to acquire the whole shebang: lock, stock and barrel, in the early 1700s.
Thanks again Glen.

15th November 2017, 08:05 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Cabbages and Kings Thank-you Gentlemen, an abundance of pertinent information. Initially, let me flag the info regarding lead rolling mills, as Vintner was descended from a family of lead mining and processing engineers. Incidentally, many have posited that Vintner was German, but I can find no trace – anywhere, anytime – of that name being present in Germany (if anybody can, then I will be well pleased); however, I can find Vinton used commonly in Sweden and occasionally in Scandinavia generally, hence my suggestion that he was probably Swedish. The 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth instructed to 'find, mine and process metals countrywide' were not from Germany alone. Secondly, and just as a side issue: I don't know how many of you have ever witnessed white-hot sheet-metal coming out of a rolling-mill ? It is very scary, especially if you are standing on one of those gantries near the coiling machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuP8L-WppI). However, in order to roll the shape of a Biscayne blade (are we going to call it that now?) you do-not/cannot use speed, it has to be done slowly with a varied degree of pressure; at least if you are using the machine that I conceived yesterday, which has three round edged wheels (one wider than the other two) that are of varying width around the circumference (which equals the length of the blade) and all three pointing into a central gap through which the hot metal rod is inserted then extruded; the wheels are mounted on axles that are spring loaded and simultaneously turned slowly by hand. A picture is worth a thousand words, I know, but I'm sure you will understand what I am getting at if you are of a mechanical mind-set. Incidentally, and apropos of Mat's video: he talks about 15th C. hollow blades, which are a revelation to me; does anyone have any information on these swords? Also, he keeps referring to 'Hollow Ground' which is a terminology that unfortunately seems to predominate and is probably responsible for the notion that the 'Machine' was a grinding machine and not a rolling mill – of sorts. Perhaps those 15th C. blades were hand ground; I suspect it is more likely they were beaten into shape on an anvil former. But… In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped. All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter? Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example: Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering? Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades? Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over? Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company? And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

15th November 2017, 08:26 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	rolling mill About 1880, when over here, Fritz Weyersberg saw, then purchased the patent for a blade roll forge invented in England. Apparently it is still in use at WKC; although Andre Wilms didn't want to talk about it when I asked earlier this year. Coals to Newcastle?

16th November 2017, 09:18 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	amen I'm still nose to the grindstone Ibrahiim.

16th November 2017, 11:09 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	foxy lady I’ve been convinced for some time that the bushy-tailed running fox was first used by the Oleys. That vendor and auctioneer last year were certain of it. Oley based the Guild of the Running Fox headquarters in the second Cutler’s Hall he built in 1787. And I’ve just discovered that a Richard Oley went to work in Birmingham, I think around 1740 but I need to confirm that. I’m meeting with the keeper of the archives of Shotley Bridge next week: I took a woman along to last week’s meeting and she charmed the pants off him (well, not literally). He’s agreed to allow me access to all the archives that the village has concerning the sword-makers. That’s something John Bygate couldn’t manage. Surely I can confirm, one way or the other, that Oley used the bushy-tailed running fox first. Incidentally, it is stated that the SB smiths also used a blade stamp of the crossed swords or the image of a bridge. I suspect we may well find those marks on the tangs of appropriate swords if we could reveal them. I’m very keen to view this cache of swords in Bowes Museum, but I suspect they will make me jump through hoops and wait till Christmas before they allow me access. I’ve learned that most museums behave that way. However, as I said earlier this week, you guys are putting everything under the microscope and that is exactly what I need.

17th November 2017, 09:42 AM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 511	I am not sure where to start in reply to what I read as quite a diverse bit of rambling but let me post a couple of related thoughts without parsing this past page. In my own reading and inquiry regarding one Prosser regarding pipe back (quill point) blades, my question was whether rolling mills were being used to form these sword blades. A reply from Robert Wilkinson-Latham mentions rolling mills were used primarily for bayonets, well into the 19th century. However, there is a British patent for rolling pipe just about the same timeline and by a Prosser (weird huh?). In yet another discussion with Wilkinson-Latham, he had provided quite a bit of information on Wilkinson blades and although (later 19th century) rolling mills were employed for the reduction of stock thickness, there were many processes preceding and following that passage of steel. These discussions can be found at his profile at Sword Forum International. He also breaks down the timelines of Weyersburg, WKC and the eventual sale of tooling from Wilkinson to WKC. Regarding hollow blade swords and the high medieval timeline, a fair number of extant examples remain in museums and collections in Europe and the UK. Examined and discussed by the likes of smith Peter Johansson, I am a bit surprised that someone searching the topic is/was unaware. Peter's home page http://www.peterjohnsson.com/ As youtube takes the fancy of many, there re also video presentations from him found there. One can also follow discussions at discussion boards such those found on www.myarmoury.com. On a final note, my own thoughts on the trefoil, three edge blades and whether they are the product of rolling mills; I suppose it is possible but when one considers the remaining grinding required after a rough form, wheels must still have been employed. My hunch on the matter is that three wheels were set in such a manner as to accept the blank and the wheels with tension on pivots allow the length to be ground and polished. Addendum Noted in my first post(s) in reply to this thread is the British History Online site with copious reference materials and where I had first seen some notes on the Hollow Sword Company. In discussion on the myArmoury forums, Howard Waddell (Albion Swords) mentions in his own research much of what has already been mentioned here in this thread but the bottom line was hollow ground swords being produced with water powered grinding wheels. We often look to the largest possible dimension of tools, when we ought not forget how small tooling was becoming. Food for thought? To me, a menu ranging from horology to engines and general tool making. Sciences thought to be lost often appear to have never disappeared. Cheers Glen Cleeton Last edited by Hotspur; 17th November 2017 at 09:59 AM.

15th November 2017, 05:43 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 511	I still think Matt could sell thousands of bobble heads. I see the videos and wikis as a place for the interested to begin an understanding but too few are going beyond them. Cheers GC

15th November 2017, 07:55 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,199	Not wishing to defer this outstanding discussion from the intriguing topic of these English sword makers to the more mundane topic of learning mediums, I simply agree, Wiki and videos along with many other developing technological advances are very much advancing our resources. Even in the old days in my researching, no papyrus jokes!!! , as I pored through book after book, the cites and referenced notes were prompts for me to check those cited sources further for context and additional information. It is no different with Wikipedia or any other medium, and it is quite frankly more expedient to have such resources at ones fingertips than interlibrary loan or searching for books by mail or old book stores. I agree, too many fall short of further research, as evidenced here many times by participants who do not read previous posts or do not use the easily accessed search function and resources here at hand. It is a matter of personal preference, and choice. People have quite varied ajendas, and if there is too much depth, or not enough, on a topic, the choice is to move past it and to material more to their own level of interest. Back to the subject at hand, the use of machinery, Sir Richard Burton visited Solingen around 1875, "...the city had not yet been touched by the Industrial Revolution", and he noted 'the hammering and forging are utterly ignorant of progress', revealing his own contempt for the modern affectations of machines. He notes that tempering is done in water 'as usual' rather than oil. It was noted that the steam engine had led to many new machines, but despite dislike of the machines by bladesmiths, there was no denial of the opportunities afforded for mass production. In 1847.....a mechanism for ROLLING BLADES from long strips of steel was introduced, a "painful blow for the old masters". -"By The Sword", Richard Cohen, 2003, p.119 ('The Great Swordmakers). It seems odd that the most influential blade making center in the world apparently relied on tried and true old traditional anvil hammering methods this late in time, yet in England this great attention to rolling mills was at hand in the 17th century.

17th November 2017, 11:05 AM	#9
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Thanks Ref. Previous post from Hotspur: thank-you Glen, I will set-to and look at the links you have provided. I need this kind of help because, up until the summer of this year, I knew absolutely nothing about swords, sword-making and sword fighting; and the only thing I knew about blade-making was what had been learned by osmosis - as it is almost impossible to avoid documentaries and articles on Japanese blade-making of the 1500s onwards. With regard to WKC: Pooley are determined to convince us that they evolved out of Wilkinson-Sword, which they probably did, but not to the extent they profess. Andre Wilms told me that they got the majority of the tooling and equipment, but he would not comment on the 'blade roll forge' Fritz Weyersburg acquired around 1880; and the Klingenmuseum denied all knowledge of it too. I must explore this Prosser connection: thank-you. Horology, of course, stimulated our catch-up, of 3,000 odd years, on the Indians and Sri Lankans. It's no distance from Shotley Bridge to Doncaster; although I understand Huntsman didn't make his final progress until he moved to Sheffield. Even so, I am certain there was a constant movement of craftsmen and ideas around this small geographical area during the 1700s. As I said in my previous post: a Robert Oley was working in Birmingham 1724 - 1732; now how much knowledge and experience could he have transplanted? Also, Dan Hayward, of Sheffield, was deeply involved in the workings at Shotley Bridge, and was determined to acquire the whole shebang: lock, stock and barrel, in the early 1700s. Thanks again Glen.