Mid 18th Century Portuguese Rapier ?

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Wrong conclusion .


No, the ones i have seen are within a different type of look, which give me no clue to judge on yours, as my residual knowledge is mainly supported by comparisons.
But i can show you three that belonged in the collection of Eduardo Nobre; two supposedly Portuguese from the XVII century with hilts and blades of distinct shape, and a third one for an officer, dated circa 1777-1790, which we may assume is in fact Portuguese, once having originally a blade of protocol dimensions, was (reportedly) remounted with a larger blade of a cup hilted sword with the patriotic inscription VIVA DO. MARIA RAINHA DE PORTUGAL.


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Hi Fernando,
Thank you again for this other example of sail guard
I was thinking that this type was a popular sword and so the period could be determined easily. I will check in A.V.B. Norman about the pommel may it could give some information about the period and also the blade type may be could help too ..
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

I wish you luck Jean-Luc.
I confess i am not very keen at checking things with Norman's bible, specially on what touches particularly un-characteristic specimens. It looks like pommels like the one in your sword have gonne through a long period as a common type, when you compare it with, for one, the sail guard sword i have posted, plus other examples i have in my little collection.
Sorry to switch on the conplicometer .

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[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wish you luck Jean-Luc.
I confess i am not very keen at checking things with Norman's bible, specially on what touches particularly un-characteristic specimens. It looks like pommels like the one in your sword have gonne through a long period as a common type, when you compare it with, for one, the sail guard sword i have posted, plus other examples i have in my little collection.
Sorry to switch on the conplicometer .

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Yes fernando some pommel had been used for long period but at less we can learn when the fashion for such pommel ended.
best
Jean-Luc

[fernando]

I guess you could screw off the one in your sword ...

[Cerjak]

other examplars

[fernando]

Both hilts somehow with a similar attitude, don't you agree ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Both hilts somehow with a similar attitude, don't you agree ?

It seems these hilts are similar in character, but not too sure about their disposition.
The wonderful reference by A.V.B. Norman, "The Rapier and Small-Sword 1460-1820" is a valuable source for overview in examining hilts and their components. It very well notes the circumstances which might compromise accurate dating in degree, but bringing those to attention actually gives the researcher guidelines for consideration.

The fact that certain forms of pommel did remain popular for long periods is noted, as with the case in the hilt of the rapier in original post, which would technically be closest to pommel type 88, with date range c. 1670-1780.
While this designation does not particularly match this pommel exactly, it does note the time range likely, and my inclination would be in the 18th c.
just as you have suggested Jean-Luc.

What seems the catch is nuances like the faceting, which is of course not noted as a separate variation in Mr. Normans "reference". The overall form described as 'egg shaped' is shown smooth, and we might wonder in the faceted character might be more toward more definitive assessment.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Both hilts somehow with a similar attitude, don't you agree ?

Yes Fernando ,this two Swords are so similar and there is no risk to say that they are coming from the same place.
Best

Jean-Luc