Keris Selit

Green · 14th November 2017, 01:39 PM

David;

That's a very beautiful peninsula Malaysia keris selit. By the way, Peninsula malaysia people don't use the term keris patrem but just keris selit. It is usually worn by groom during wedding, when they use formal 'Malay busana'... Old traditional Malay attire. And also during any traditional events when Malay busana is worn.

Jean;

Your first keris is not from peninsula Malaysia, but I guess from Sumatra based on the hilt form. The second is not Malay too I believe. the blade is heavily stained (warangan) whereas malay blade is never waranged. The hilt of the second keris is Peninsula Malay hilt though.

David · 14th November 2017, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

By the way, Peninsula malaysia people don't use the term keris patrem but just keris selit.

Thanks Green, i am aware of this. I did not use the term to name this keris. I only mentioned it was "patrem size" to give people a clear understanding of the size of the keris.

David · 14th November 2017, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Jean;
Your first keris is not from peninsula Malaysia, but I guess from Sumatra based on the hilt form.

I agree with Green on your first keris and i'm not sure that it is specifically intended to be keris selit. Perhaps someone knows more about the tradition of such small keris in Sumatra. I would imagine that dependent upon what part of the island one is on traditions vary. But i believe in certain areas patrems are known. Perhaps further north closer to the Peninsula keris selit are known, but on this i am not at all sure.

Jean · 14th November 2017, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

David;

Jean;

Your first keris is not from peninsula Malaysia, but I guess from Sumatra based on the hilt form. The second is not Malay too I believe. the blade is heavily stained (warangan) whereas malay blade is never waranged. The hilt of the second keris is Peninsula Malay hilt though.

Hello Green,
I agree that the first kris is probably from Sumatra but not of a common type. I have used the word Malay in the broad sense so it is not equivalent to Malaysian.
Regarding the blade of the second kris, it was treated by warangan in Solo even if this is not traditional in Malaysia so you can't assess its origin based on this

Regards

David · 14th November 2017, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Green,
I agree that the first kris is probably from Sumatra but not of a common type. I have used the word Malay in the broad sense so it is not equivalent to Malaysian.
Regarding the blade of the second kris, it was treated by warangan in Solo even if this is not traditional in Malaysia so you can't assess its origin based on this

Regards

I certainly understood your usage of "Malay" in this sense and also agree with you that you can't place the origin of a blade based upon whether or not it has received a warangan treatment since any blade from anywhere might get such a treatment dependent upon who its owner is and the customs of the area in which the blade travels and ends up.
I could be mistaken, but from my understanding Sumatra is a bit of a mixed bag culturally. Parts of it seem to be strongly under the influence of Malay keris culture while other parts (Palembang area) were strongly influenced by Jawa. So i wonder if the custom of keris selit was not known in the more Malay influenced regions.

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2017, 10:28 PM

Green, this is not a challenge, it is a question about something I do not know.

You, and many other people have the belief that Malay keris were"never stained", and certainly this is the case at the present time.

However, during my life time, and until now, I have had, and now have keris that were collected in old Malaya, before Malaya became Malaysia, and in Southern Thailand, Pattani. Some of these keris were collected circa 1920.

These keris display both stained finish, and unstained finish. I have two Pattani keris that have original stain from circa 1920.

I have just sold a Bugis keris collected in old Batavia (now Jakarta) in circa 1920, the blade was not stained when it was bought.

So do we know when and where this ethic of "no stain" arose?

It seems to me that throughout the "no stain" areas of today, that in the past it may have been a matter of personal preference as to whether a blade was stained or not.

David · 14th November 2017, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You, and many other people have the belief that Malay keris were"never stained", and certainly this is the case at the present time.

However, during my life time, and until now, I have had, and now have keris that were collected in old Malaya, before Malaya became Malaysia, and in Southern Thailand, Pattani. Some of these keris were collected circa 1920.

These keris display both stained finish, and unstained finish. I have two Pattani keris that have original stain from circa 1920.

I have just sold a Bugis keris collected in old Batavia (now Jakarta) in circa 1920, the blade was not stained when it was bought.

So do we know when and where this ethic of "no stain" arose?

It seems to me that throughout the "no stain" areas of today, that in the past it may have been a matter of personal preference as to whether a blade was stained or not.

This is a good question Alan, though i wonder if we can actually find any definitive answer. Since the keris began in Jawa and spread throughout the area from there it does seem logical that in the early stages of its travels the customs of blade treatment common in Jawa would be followed at least to some extent by those adopting the keris as their own. That you have or have had keris form these areas with provenance that dates at least to the early 20th century that did indeed still have original stain seems a good indication that warangan treatment was not unheard of for keris of Malay origin.

Green · 15th November 2017, 12:03 AM

Alan; A v good question and I'm no expert by a long shot. I hope malaysian keris experts that are present in the forum can give an answer . But I'll try to be brave and hazard an opinion.

As far as I know keris culture in Peninsula Malaysia and Patani (Southern Thailand Muslim majority province) has never had the staining culture and technique used for cleaning and maintaining the keris the way the Javanese do. In fact the term 'Warangan' has no direct translation in the Malay language. And there are no warangan materials available in Malaysia and those that need to do warangan on their (newly acquired javanese ) blades have to get them from Java. In short warangan has never been a Malay keris culture.

The malay/patani blades achieved their deep black coloration not because of warangan but initial treatment of the blade in acid bath and particular choice of iron used.

As to the presence of waranged old Malay blades , it may well have been done by people who have Javanese influence.

A. G. Maisey · 15th November 2017, 03:54 AM

Thanks for your opinion Green.
In fact, in the 19th century pamor in Malay blades was brought out by the use of salt and sulphur, I've used this method, it both etches and stains, and on an old blade that has been previously stained it gives quite an effective finish. I do not know if the sulphur and salt method was the only method used.
In respect of the word "warangan" it is a word that exists in Classical Malay, it is a loan word from Javanese, but in was in use in 19th century Malaya and is recognised as a part of the Classical Malay lexicon. It will be found in Wilkinson where the English meaning is given as "ratsbane; realgar". Warangan also can be found in Old Javanese, but there it means "a special colour". In Modern Javanese "warangan" means "arsenic", the correct word for staining a blade is "marangi", which can also mean to poison somebody or something.

So it is not quite correct to say that "warangan" has never been a part Malay usage, it definitely has been, but I agree, it is not now.

The evidence of two keris, collected in Pattani in about 1920, that are stained seems to indicate that 100 years ago blade staining was carried out in Pattani.

This still leaves the question:- when did it become general practice not to stain, because the evidence seems to indicate that 100 years ago, blades from Malaya, Pattani, and even Sulawesi, could be either stained or unstained.

Yes, possibly Javanese influence may have played a part in staining of blades. Javanese culture was the most influential culture in Maritime SE Asia for a very long time.But new Malay blades were subjected to the salt and sulphur treatment, so some Malay blades were stained at least when new, but perhaps were never re-stained.

Sajen · 14th November 2017, 10:34 PM

Here is my remaining one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...69&postcount=2

By far not so nice like your one, 27 cm long inside sarung.

David · 14th November 2017, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here is my remaining one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...69&postcount=2

By far not so nice like your one, 27 cm long inside sarung.

Thanks for the add Detlef. Though the materials are not as high end, a very similar form of dress.

14th November 2017, 01:39 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 321	David; That's a very beautiful peninsula Malaysia keris selit. By the way, Peninsula malaysia people don't use the term keris patrem but just keris selit. It is usually worn by groom during wedding, when they use formal 'Malay busana'... Old traditional Malay attire. And also during any traditional events when Malay busana is worn. Jean; Your first keris is not from peninsula Malaysia, but I guess from Sumatra based on the hilt form. The second is not Malay too I believe. the blade is heavily stained (warangan) whereas malay blade is never waranged. The hilt of the second keris is Peninsula Malay hilt though.

14th November 2017, 10:28 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Green, this is not a challenge, it is a question about something I do not know. You, and many other people have the belief that Malay keris were"never stained", and certainly this is the case at the present time. However, during my life time, and until now, I have had, and now have keris that were collected in old Malaya, before Malaya became Malaysia, and in Southern Thailand, Pattani. Some of these keris were collected circa 1920. These keris display both stained finish, and unstained finish. I have two Pattani keris that have original stain from circa 1920. I have just sold a Bugis keris collected in old Batavia (now Jakarta) in circa 1920, the blade was not stained when it was bought. So do we know when and where this ethic of "no stain" arose? It seems to me that throughout the "no stain" areas of today, that in the past it may have been a matter of personal preference as to whether a blade was stained or not.

15th November 2017, 12:03 AM	#8
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 321	Alan; A v good question and I'm no expert by a long shot. I hope malaysian keris experts that are present in the forum can give an answer . But I'll try to be brave and hazard an opinion. As far as I know keris culture in Peninsula Malaysia and Patani (Southern Thailand Muslim majority province) has never had the staining culture and technique used for cleaning and maintaining the keris the way the Javanese do. In fact the term 'Warangan' has no direct translation in the Malay language. And there are no warangan materials available in Malaysia and those that need to do warangan on their (newly acquired javanese ) blades have to get them from Java. In short warangan has never been a Malay keris culture. The malay/patani blades achieved their deep black coloration not because of warangan but initial treatment of the blade in acid bath and particular choice of iron used. As to the presence of waranged old Malay blades , it may well have been done by people who have Javanese influence.

15th November 2017, 03:54 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your opinion Green. In fact, in the 19th century pamor in Malay blades was brought out by the use of salt and sulphur, I've used this method, it both etches and stains, and on an old blade that has been previously stained it gives quite an effective finish. I do not know if the sulphur and salt method was the only method used. In respect of the word "warangan" it is a word that exists in Classical Malay, it is a loan word from Javanese, but in was in use in 19th century Malaya and is recognised as a part of the Classical Malay lexicon. It will be found in Wilkinson where the English meaning is given as "ratsbane; realgar". Warangan also can be found in Old Javanese, but there it means "a special colour". In Modern Javanese "warangan" means "arsenic", the correct word for staining a blade is "marangi", which can also mean to poison somebody or something. So it is not quite correct to say that "warangan" has never been a part Malay usage, it definitely has been, but I agree, it is not now. The evidence of two keris, collected in Pattani in about 1920, that are stained seems to indicate that 100 years ago blade staining was carried out in Pattani. This still leaves the question:- when did it become general practice not to stain, because the evidence seems to indicate that 100 years ago, blades from Malaya, Pattani, and even Sulawesi, could be either stained or unstained. Yes, possibly Javanese influence may have played a part in staining of blades. Javanese culture was the most influential culture in Maritime SE Asia for a very long time.But new Malay blades were subjected to the salt and sulphur treatment, so some Malay blades were stained at least when new, but perhaps were never re-stained.

14th November 2017, 10:34 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Here is my remaining one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...69&postcount=2 By far not so nice like your one, 27 cm long inside sarung.