Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Hotspur · 13th November 2017, 11:59 PM

There are Percies, and then there were Percy's

A better bookmark, fwiw.
http://www.percyfamilyhistory.com/?

I bring mention of that because of the default and adoption of the name. Thus Hugh Percy, of the American Revolution, wasn't really a Perci at all

Hotspur · 14th November 2017, 12:24 AM

Do not get me started. Some images are too large to attach here.

I have a pennon/banner buried somewhere.

The Percies were often on the "wrong" side, even during the retreat from Lexigton and Concord but aside from the gunpowder plot generation, true and valiant warriors at war.

Cheers

GC aka Hotspur

The MDL photos courtesy of the Michael D Long pages more than a decade ago.

Also a documents on crescents. Not really topical to the Shotley Bridge discussion but still interesting.

I don't know if this Tudor era page will load (resized it) May be too small to read well. Another now resized, perhaps it will load. Phew, what a workout.

urbanspaceman · 14th November 2017, 01:53 AM

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

Hotspur · 14th November 2017, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Noun Grammar Rules:
Singular = Lady.
Plural = Ladies.
Possessive Singular = Lady's.
Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays).
But...
Proper noun grammar rules:
Singular = Percy.
Plural = Percys.
Possessive Singular = Percy's.
Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays).

If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

Oh goody, a gentle grammarian with a red pencil. Of dozens of edits i had made today, I left one for your attentions.

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman · 14th November 2017, 08:15 PM

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

kronckew · 14th November 2017, 08:34 PM

i found a reference to someone else suggesting extruding rollers to form the blade then heat treating it. which is another skill. heat treating these long thin blades without getting a warp would take real skill, even if you did do a finish grind. not much room for error at all. steel was variable, and temperatures were judged by eye, not electronics. no cnc machines in those days.

urbanspaceman · 14th November 2017, 09:01 PM

Yes, you're right: keeping it straight during the tempering must have been a major problem.
I have this 1850s court sword from the Coulaux Brothers in Klingenthal which has the most astonishing polished steel blade of the two narrow, one wide hollow variety. I find it difficult to put it down, it is such a marvellous thing to parry about with: stiff enough and sharp enough to penetrate, yet incredibly flexible and light; plus, perfectly balanced. I have a regular two-sided court sword of the same period from Solingen and it doesn't feel anywhere near as comfortable to hold. Plus, I don't know how Klingenthal produced such a brilliant polish to their steel, it looks like it is chrome plated; it's not, is it? I always thought chromium plating was developed in America in the 1920s... but!

Hotspur · 15th November 2017, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas...
I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

Rolling mills come in during the industrial revolution. Why it took steam to develop it before water wheels, I am not sure but it also goes hand in hand with increases of the production of all metals. Ordinary tableware also becoming more regular items.

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 06:49 AM

The point is that the Solingen swordmakers had a device for turning out what some recognise as Biscayayne or Colichemarde blades for which there was an enormous demand in the rest of Europe. They talked of little wheels... which people thought meant grinding wheels but which like the rest of the story may have been misunderstood and what were thought to be grinders were perhaps small rolling wheels on the Rolling Mill.

Until I looked I didnt know that Leonardo da Vinci may well be credited with the first rolling mill device..seen below. The power for rolling mills was first the horse then water...then steam...etc

This may mean that hammers were not involved at least not initially. See https://www.innovaltec.com/history-metal-rolling-blog/

13th November 2017, 11:59 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 511	There are Percies, and then there were Percy's A better bookmark, fwiw. http://www.percyfamilyhistory.com/? I bring mention of that because of the default and adoption of the name. Thus Hugh Percy, of the American Revolution, wasn't really a Perci at all Last edited by Hotspur; 14th November 2017 at 01:00 AM.

14th November 2017, 01:53 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Grammar Noun Grammar Rules: Singular = Lady. Plural = Ladies. Possessive Singular = Lady's. Possessive Plural = Ladies' (or strictly Ladies's: not comfortable nowadays). But... Proper noun grammar rules: Singular = Percy. Plural = Percys. Possessive Singular = Percy's. Possessive Plural = Percys' (or strictly Percys's: not comfortable nowadays). If the singular and plural both end in an s... answers please.

14th November 2017, 08:15 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Rolling on I have come up with a design for a machine that can roll hollows into a tapering length of red-hot steel; even one wide and two narrow hollows if required. If I had the right software I could draw it, but alas... I keep going on about the waste of grinding, but this machine could first roll the majority of the hollow, then grind true, then polish, just by changing the wheels and the speed. Including the Colichemarde!

14th November 2017, 09:01 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Chromium plated? Yes, you're right: keeping it straight during the tempering must have been a major problem. I have this 1850s court sword from the Coulaux Brothers in Klingenthal which has the most astonishing polished steel blade of the two narrow, one wide hollow variety. I find it difficult to put it down, it is such a marvellous thing to parry about with: stiff enough and sharp enough to penetrate, yet incredibly flexible and light; plus, perfectly balanced. I have a regular two-sided court sword of the same period from Solingen and it doesn't feel anywhere near as comfortable to hold. Plus, I don't know how Klingenthal produced such a brilliant polish to their steel, it looks like it is chrome plated; it's not, is it? I always thought chromium plating was developed in America in the 1920s... but!

15th November 2017, 06:49 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The point is that the Solingen swordmakers had a device for turning out what some recognise as Biscayayne or Colichemarde blades for which there was an enormous demand in the rest of Europe. They talked of little wheels... which people thought meant grinding wheels but which like the rest of the story may have been misunderstood and what were thought to be grinders were perhaps small rolling wheels on the Rolling Mill. Until I looked I didnt know that Leonardo da Vinci may well be credited with the first rolling mill device..seen below. The power for rolling mills was first the horse then water...then steam...etc This may mean that hammers were not involved at least not initially. See https://www.innovaltec.com/history-metal-rolling-blog/ Attached Images

14th November 2017, 08:34 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	i found a reference to someone else suggesting extruding rollers to form the blade then heat treating it. which is another skill. heat treating these long thin blades without getting a warp would take real skill, even if you did do a finish grind. not much room for error at all. steel was variable, and temperatures were judged by eye, not electronics. no cnc machines in those days.