An Idea Whose Time Never Quite Came

[fernando]

A most interesting and fine gun, no doubt.
Congratulations Lee, on finding what appears to be the same type of gun and potentially from the same workshop, such is the design of the parts.
How amazing is what appears to be a needle in a haystack turns out to be so simple as Googling on the thing; or even the right way to Google is also an art.
OTOH, my dilemma about one being 'able' to shoot the back loads before the front ones is no more. A possible system failure is another deal.
Maybe one day you will find the tag that came with it; what surprises will it provide.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree, a beautiful gun, and a most unusual firing arrangement.
It does seem that many firearms from Belgium came into the US during the 1860s onward, and of course New York was one main arrival point. There was the huge influx of 'Zulu' shotguns coming in from Belgium which were apparently converted from surplus French muskets.

It would seem the potential for simultaneous firing of all charges would be horrendously likely, and as noted, with disastrous results to the shooter.
I understand that the well known 'pepperbox' pistols had a certain reputation for having this unfortunate action at times.

I saw in a museum in Cody, Wyoming a revolver which had one of these multiple detonations, and noted its fatal result.

Just the same, a beautiful gun, and interesting 'firearm curiosa'!

[Les-M]

your gun was made in Belgium by dewalle brothers circa 1855

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

...

I saw in a museum in Cody, Wyoming a revolver which had one of these multiple detonations, and noted its fatal result.

...

colt style cap & ball revolvers have a gap between the cylinder and the barrel. there is a significant discharge of gas, unburnt powder, burning powder, lead shavings from any misalignment, etc. the next round is perilously close. people usually fill the space above the rammed projectile with grease - when they have time. under sustained firing, they may skip the grease and thus increase the chances of setting off a chain of multiple detonations. pepperbox pistols didn't have the gap, but weren't grease filled either. if they were smart they'd use a greased patch and/or maybe a greased wad over the load. cartridge guns are a lot safer, but you still need to keep well away from the cylinder gap. colt made revolving rifles, but the nearness of the shooter's cheek to that gap made them quite unpopular. (and thus increased their price to modern collectors as fewer were made).

see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nucg5VAff4c
(under 18's should not click the link as chikken fingers gave their lives in this video.)

[Lee]

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your comments. I suppose that the real collector's item here might be whatever instructions would have come with such a gun about how to load it for safe operation. I have never had it apart or even removed the ramrod that is fairly tightly inserted. Clearly the length and sealing of the first load would be absolutely critical, so I'll be curious if the ramrod has been marked.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Lee

... I suppose that the real collector's item here might be whatever instructions would have come with such a gun about how to load it for safe operation...

How good is your french, Lee ? Or perhaps you can manage to translate your gun loading instructions, which you may find scrolling down THIS PAGE.

This is definitely a fine gun; the only reason for the museum of weapons of Liege to preserve one of these exceptional weapons under the reference (MAL 5058-Ah 39).

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Lee

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your comments. I suppose that the real collector's item here might be whatever instructions would have come with such a gun about how to load it for safe operation. I have never had it apart or even removed the ramrod that is fairly tightly inserted. Clearly the length and sealing of the first load would be absolutely critical, so I'll be curious if the ramrod has been marked.

i hope so, not much lee-way (pun intended*) in the alignment with the touch holes.

related: i have been told that during the american civil war it was not uncommon for the recruits going into battle to load their weapons for the volley fire by ranks in sync with their comrades, but forgetting to put a fresh cap on their rifle. their sergeant, after practice live fire drills would go down the line and have them drop the ramrod down the muzzle of their rifle, and heaven forbid one didn't go down all the way. one unlucky soul was found to have six loads in his barrel, all of which he had to extract with a worm while suffering further under the ministrations of the sarge. if it had happened in a real battle the potential for an explosion setting it all off if he finally did recap his rifle (another idiom we've added to the language?) and potentially killing him and maybe someone next to him.

* - leaway hasn't got the same oomph.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

...a gap between the cylinder and the barrel. there is a significant discharge of gas ...lead shavings from any misalignment, etc....

I had an Adams revolver with all traces of having gone through a misalignment episode; a conclusion i arrived at, by inferring that the tremendous impact caused by the projectile being stuck at the barrel chamber had the power to bend the upper back of its sturdy cylinder frame resulting in a steel fissure.

You must remember the Belgium revolver Nagant 1895. An ingenious gas-sealing system in that, whilst cocking the hammer, the cylinder turns and moves forward, closing the gap between it (cylinder) and barrel. Noteworthy it is the ammo shell that locks into the barrel; the projectile being placed ‘inside’ the capsule, will find a smooth straight path into the barrel; a unique type of ammo. I heard they discontinued this system due to its less handy reloading.
Interesting that they firstly intended to reduce the escape of gases, uncreasing the shot power; safety came in second place .

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

...
Interesting that they firstly intended to reduce the escape of gases, increasing the shot power; safety came in second place .

'Safety' was was not politically correct then, like now.

i've heard of that belgian revolver, another clever idea that never caught on. bit like the semi-automatic revolver.

[David R]

related: i have been told that during the american civil war it was not uncommon for the recruits going into battle to load their weapons for the volley fire by ranks in sync with their comrades, but forgetting to put a fresh cap on their rifle. their sergeant, after practice live fire drills would go down the line and have them drop the ramrod down the muzzle of their rifle, and heaven forbid one didn't go down all the way. one unlucky soul was found to have six loads in his barrel, all of which he had to extract with a worm while suffering further under the ministrations of the sarge. if it had happened in a real battle the potential for an explosion setting it all off if he finally did recap his rifle (another idiom we've added to the language?) and potentially killing him and maybe someone next to him.

* - leaway hasn't got the same oomph. [/QUOTE]

I have seen this happen for real. I loaned a reproduction musket to a friend for use at a reenactment at Waterloo. I later pulled 6 loads out of it! I have also seen double loads ignite and the recoil knock the shooter over. Blanks only bigod but cause for thought all the same.

[David R]

Originally Posted by kronckew

.. related: i have been told that during the american civil war it was not uncommon for the recruits going into battle to load their weapons for the volley fire by ranks in sync with their comrades, but forgetting to put a fresh cap on their rifle. their sergeant, after practice live fire drills would go down the line and have them drop the ramrod down the muzzle of their rifle, and heaven forbid one didn't go down all the way. one unlucky soul was found to have six loads in his barrel, all of which he had to extract with a worm while suffering further under the ministrations of the sarge. if it had happened in a real battle the potential for an explosion setting it all off if he finally did recap his rifle (another idiom we've added to the language?) and potentially killing him and maybe someone next to him.

* - leaway hasn't got the same oomph.

I have seen this happen for real. I loaned a reproduction musket to a friend for use at a reenactment at Waterloo. I later pulled 6 loads out of it! I have also seen double loads ignite and the recoil knock the shooter over. Blanks only bigod but cause for thought all the same.

[Richard G]

Sorry, if this is insultingly obvious, but with all this talk of multiple loads and Lee saying he has not removed the ramrod, I trust someone has plumbed the barrels to check there is not a load still in there.
Best wishes
Richard

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by kronckew

colt style cap & ball revolvers have a gap between the cylinder and the barrel. there is a significant discharge of gas, unburnt powder, burning powder, lead shavings from any misalignment, etc. the next round is perilously close. people usually fill the space above the rammed projectile with grease - when they have time. under sustained firing, they may skip the grease and thus increase the chances of setting off a chain of multiple detonations. pepperbox pistols didn't have the gap, but weren't grease filled either. if they were smart they'd use a greased patch and/or maybe a greased wad over the load. cartridge guns are a lot safer, but you still need to keep well away from the cylinder gap. colt made revolving rifles, but the nearness of the shooter's cheek to that gap made them quite unpopular. (and thus increased their price to modern collectors as fewer were made).

see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nucg5VAff4c
(under 18's should not click the link as chikken fingers gave their lives in this video.)

I had a chain fire with one of my cap and ball revolvers a few years back. Although I had greased the chambers , it was a very hot day and much of the grease had meted away . Although it was a spectacular event , no harm was sustained by me , the pistol or the people either side of me ! We were all no doubt very fortunate !