Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

Certainly the Solingen people had a machine with little wheels...presumeably small grinders..and hollows were the heavily grooved out blades as seen on Colichemarde blades. Below is how the normal fullers were hammered into a flat blade but this was a different process to Colichemardes. I dont believe these blades were drawn out like wire... but ground out with spinning grindstone wheels..The Forte being left flat for strength though you will see some coli blades with three faces all the way to the guard and no squared off Forte.

Below the black arrow denotes the mallet...for ordinary fuller placement on flat blades.

[urbanspaceman]

Yes, I watched a video of a smith putting hollows into a Brown Bess bayonet and he hammered them in, resting the blade on a former in the anvil. I was thinking that, after that stage. the grinding would be minimal and the waste material also. Considering that they were having to spend a lot of money on stock and getting into heavy debt as a result, it seems that grinding it all away was wasteful and expensive.
The hollow blade I have has one large hollow and two smaller hollows, and it looks like it could easily have been hammered into that shape then ground smooth.
Does anyone actually have first-hand experience of this miraculous machine that is at the heart of all the controversy, mystery and contention?
I keep coming back to the requests for patents and exclusivity from the ex Hounslow smiths after the civil war here: all claiming to be able to produce hollow blades; it doesn't ring true to me.

[urbanspaceman]

Looking at the list (above) of required blades from the SB smiths in 1703, we see many mentions of hollows - sometimes three hollows; what is that all about?
I don't understand some of the terms used to describe blade types so I don't understand what they meant by three hollows. Any help here anybody?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Yes, I watched a video of a smith putting hollows into a Brown Bess bayonet and he hammered them in, resting the blade on a former in the anvil. I was thinking that, after that stage. the grinding would be minimal and the waste material also. Considering that they were having to spend a lot of money on stock and getting into heavy debt as a result, it seems that grinding it all away was wasteful and expensive.
The hollow blade I have has one large hollow and two smaller hollows, and it looks like it could easily have been hammered into that shape then ground smooth.
Does anyone actually have first-hand experience of this miraculous machine that is at the heart of all the controversy, mystery and contention?
I keep coming back to the requests for patents and exclusivity from the ex Hounslow smiths after the civil war here: all claiming to be able to produce hollow blades; it doesn't ring true to me.

Its a good point and since they were all smuggling the basic Colichemardes into England at the time I personally don't believe there was a machine in the entire country doing this work. They were all making it up !! If there was a machine then... where is it now? There wasnt one ... It was baloney !!

[Jim McDougall]

Keith,
The three hollows were, if I understand, the triangular or three faced blades , if I recall, they were termed 'Biscayan' as noted by Ibrahiim
The colichemarde blades I believe were primarily produced in Solingen, but I would not be surprised at French production as well. I agree, it is unlikely any were ever produced in Shotley, but most certainly were imported in some degree.

All the best
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Another take on what they meant by Hollows; They use the word in two ways I suspect... First to describe a sword e.g. Hangers with two hollows by which I think they mean fullers. However when they say hollow grind they mean the type of blade seen on colichemarde and seen on the chart at 36 where the bayonets are listed.

[Jim McDougall]

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

Salaams Jim and exactly the kind of backup needed just now as the thread enters murky waters... not that we have crystal clarity and as experienced by Kieth on the ground quite a lot of myth and legend mixed with some half truths and a lot of complete nonsense not least the mercury filled hollow blade puzzle..and not with standing that how far he has advanced our understanding of the Shotley situation...A key factor in swordmaking in England at the time.

I was looking at the odd stories on Fullers and how that became muddled but interestingly how it only appears in the mid 19thC in terms used by blacksmiths and presumably sword makers...I wonder did they use the old English Hollows terminology...which would add to the puzzlement in calling blades hollow and of hollow grinding which is completely different~

Using wiki in this regard I note Quote" The term "fuller" is from the Old English fuliere, meaning "one who fulls (pleats) cloth." It is derived from the Latin word fullo. The first recorded use of the term as a blacksmithing tool is from 1864, according to Webster's Dictionary. The term used in historical Europe is largely unknown, and due to the constantly changing nature of language, the popular term also may have varied from generation to generation. King Thrasamund of the Vandals was recorded in a letter to King Theodoric the Ostrogoth, giving thanks for a gift of swords, and refers to the fullers in the blades as simply grooves: "...their centers, hollowed out with beautiful grooves, seem to undulate with worm-like markings; for shadows of such variety you would think the metal was interwoven rather than shining with different colors." The French often use the term goutiere (gutter) or cannelure (channel). The ancient Viking term is unknown. As a verb, the old French term "gutter" meant "to cut small hollows," as in the gutter of a crossbow."Unquote.
Voila!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Although Burton was wrong at page 135 in his epic Book of Swords where he indicated Colichemarde going suddenly out of fashion at the time of Louis 14th he does show interesting perspective on the same page with Biscayan blades not much different to Colichemarde.