How many of the katars we know were court katars?

[Jim McDougall]

Very astute observations placed here on the topic of katars, and as has been noted, some key qualifying factors toward classification. As Marius said, the bejeweled examples would seem to be reserved for illustrious wear during events where persons of high standing, up to and including royal figures.

As with most forms of weapon, the functional, less decorated examples would certainly have been used in the field, or on campaign. The 'court' classification would be a presumed category in most cases, unless the weapon has specified provenance, as has been noted.

As Jose has also well noted, later decoration which included that of gold koftgari, was often applied later. These circumstances could have been brought about for numerous reasons, some certainly for valid glorification of a favored weapon with important heritage, while others of course more marketable embellishment.

Jens, your study and collecting of katars, as far as I have ever known, surpasses any other such specialized work in the arms and armour community. It would be outstanding to see your examples here with your observations!!!
Please bring them on!!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons. To this come, as Robert writes in his last book, that some of them had older blades attached, which did not qualify them either.
But have a look at this one, it is Rajput 18th century, and 52 cm long. It is made in one piece of dark crystalline wootz,and sounds like a tuning fork when hit on wood.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons. To this come, as Robert writes in his last book, that some of them had older blades attached, which did not qualify them either.
But have a look at this one, it is Rajput 18th century, and 52 cm long. It is made in one piece of dark crystalline wootz,and sounds like a tuning fork when hit on wood.

Salaams Jens, To mirror the words of Jim I have to say what an excellent way you have of offering posts and the fact that you are the leader in your field...and I know you probably don't like people telling you that ... but its true.
One thing about the Katar you show which intrigues me is the strange addition of the VVVVVVV zig zag line at the Forte that I have seen before on Omani Battle Swords and wondered if it was significant.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Ibrahiim,
You are right - I dont like to be told that I am a leader in this field, as I am not - what I am, is a collector with an interest i the katars for many years, and through this interest I may have more knowledge than others.
To prove this to you. Yes, the 'VVV's', I dont know what they represent, but I too have seen them before. What about the hilt base? The hilt bases can be very different, but they are mostly represented in both the north and the south, and there are a lot of other questions I have, but I can only research few things at the time - I am sorry to say.

[A. G. Maisey]

I know nothing about katars, but I do understand a little about Hindu symbolism.
What I offer below is merely a suggestion for further research by those who may have an interest in the katar.

The katar can be regarded as principally a Hindu weapon form, and viewed from the perspective of Hindu symbolism, it is full of Shivatic iconography . The blade itself and fullers within the blade are triangles, in fact when in the hand, upward pointing triangles, symbolic of Shiva and the masculine principle.

Downward pointing triangles are symbolic of the female principle and of the Shakti of Shiva, Parvati. In the case of the VVVV in question, we can see positive and negative triangles, the physically present triangles, and the triangles represented by the spaces, thus we have both male and female triangles, male and female symbols

In this ornamentation of a series of triangles I believe it is possible that research may show that the number, and possibly the way in which the triangles are presented will have a specific interpretation, one that may be linked to the male/female principle but not directly representing this. Alternatively, if the VVVV border is read as male + female it can represent community and/or the cosmos.

It may be worthwhile to try to gain an understanding of the Hindu concept of the One God. In short, God is everywhere, nothing exists but God.

So if we look at a katar from the iconographic perspective, we have Shivatic symbolism and if we look at the VVVVV border we possibly have symbolism that can be understood in terms of Shivatic iconography.

I repeat:- the above is just a signpost. A little time spent on investigating the relevant questions will give more.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you very much for this mail, it is most interesting, and may lead to a bewtter understanding of the symbolism of decoration.

[Jim McDougall]

Alan, thank you so much for that fascinating insight into possibilities for these otherwise presumably decorative symbolisms. There are profound complexities in Hindu symbolism, but as Indian weaponry has in many cases been observed as holding much inherent value in these religious aspects it must be strongly considered. Often what seems to the uninitiated to be simple aesthetic decoration has much deeper meaning.

As you well point out, these kinds of symbolism transcend weapon forms but remain inherent in many which are attributed to those of Hindu Faith.

Jens, I know what you mean about recognizing your well known place in the study of these katars as just a collector, but powerfully advanced in this field. Very, very few collectors ever pursue the history, development and classification of these the way you have, and frankly I am extremely proud of what I have learned from you these many years.

That set aside, I look forward to the examples, and Alan's observation on this decoration is excellent. As Ibrahiim has noted, this distinct design of the linear 'V's does occur on Omani arms, and I wonder if perhaps the notable trade from coastal India to Arabia may account for such occurrence?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons.

Jens, I would disagree with this statement. As a close quarters weapon I do not think the thickness of the side bars would make much difference.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Eric, you could be right. Another question is, how many of the persons who could pay for these gold and silver decorated weapons, did take part in the actual battle? Did they sit on their elephants directing all the others?

[mariusgmioc]

From all I know, the main role of the side bars of the Katars is to ensure the stability of the grip by maintaining the alignment between the blade and the forearm and not for parrying blows, albeit they could be used for parry.

If their main purpose would have been parrying, they would have been designed wider, longer and of course thicker, because the way they are, they are simply to short and narrow to effectively block a blow from a Tulwar for example. Any blow from a Tulwar that wouldn't be perfectly perpendicular to the side bar would simply be deflected along the unprotected portion of the arm and cause severe wounding.

Moreover, the Katar was never meant to be a main fighting weapon but a side arm. No Indian soldier would have gone to battle armed with a Katar but with a Tulwar and a shield. The Katar would have stayed sheathed in the sash and pulled out only as a last resort when the wielder has lost his Tulwar, or to deliver a final blow to an incapacitated enemy.

Katars were also used for hunting, exactly the same way the European hunting daggers were used, namely to deliver the final blow to the dying beast.

I know there are many stories about Rajas killing charging tigers and fighting single-handed entire armies armed only with a Katar, but how much truth is in them?!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Marius, the sideguards were meant for making stability of the cross bars, but if it was only that, the side bars could have been quite short, as you now and again see them.On other, more fighting style katars, you see the side guards being qiute a bit longer.
Jens

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Marius, the sideguards were meant for making stability of the cross bars, but if it was only that, the side bars could have been quite short, as you now and again see them.On other, more fighting style katars, you see the side guards being qiute a bit longer.
Jens

Nope! If the side bars are shorter, they cannot maintain a stable alignment between the blade and the forearm. They need a certain length for that, a length that extends well above the wrist, and that is exactly about the length they have.

But I agree that there are some Katars more suitable for combat than others, however, this doesn't mean they were deliberately designed for combat.