How many of the katars we know were court katars?

Battara · 9th November 2017, 03:23 AM

One thing would be artistic gold koftgari? Lots of plain gold koftgari might indicate a later application.

mariusgmioc · 9th November 2017, 07:42 AM

Hello Jens,

In my oppinion there is no such a thing as "court katar!" This is a made up term that was invented and is used by some art dealers to make their katars more saleable.

As with regards to decorations, from all that I know, even the rajas used rather plain katars and saved the lavishly decorated ones for dress and parade.

But that's only my "two cents."

Jens Nordlunde · 9th November 2017, 02:36 PM

You are right, I should not have written 'court katars', I should have written 'daily use katars', and maybe added 'of a better quality'.
The question was not very clear, as I meant to ask 'compared to real fighting katars'.
The fighting katars seem to be outnumbered, although they had many very big armies during centuries - sso maybe the fighting katars were the first ones to be melted down.

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2017, 04:07 PM

Very astute observations placed here on the topic of katars, and as has been noted, some key qualifying factors toward classification. As Marius said, the bejeweled examples would seem to be reserved for illustrious wear during events where persons of high standing, up to and including royal figures.

As with most forms of weapon, the functional, less decorated examples would certainly have been used in the field, or on campaign. The 'court' classification would be a presumed category in most cases, unless the weapon has specified provenance, as has been noted.

As Jose has also well noted, later decoration which included that of gold koftgari, was often applied later. These circumstances could have been brought about for numerous reasons, some certainly for valid glorification of a favored weapon with important heritage, while others of course more marketable embellishment.

Jens, your study and collecting of katars, as far as I have ever known, surpasses any other such specialized work in the arms and armour community. It would be outstanding to see your examples here with your observations!!!
Please bring them on!!!

Jens Nordlunde · 9th November 2017, 04:48 PM

Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons. To this come, as Robert writes in his last book, that some of them had older blades attached, which did not qualify them either.
But have a look at this one, it is Rajput 18th century, and 52 cm long. It is made in one piece of dark crystalline wootz,and sounds like a tuning fork when hit on wood.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th November 2017, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons. To this come, as Robert writes in his last book, that some of them had older blades attached, which did not qualify them either.
But have a look at this one, it is Rajput 18th century, and 52 cm long. It is made in one piece of dark crystalline wootz,and sounds like a tuning fork when hit on wood.

Salaams Jens, To mirror the words of Jim I have to say what an excellent way you have of offering posts and the fact that you are the leader in your field...and I know you probably don't like people telling you that ... but its true.
One thing about the Katar you show which intrigues me is the strange addition of the VVVVVVV zig zag line at the Forte that I have seen before on Omani Battle Swords and wondered if it was significant.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th November 2017, 06:21 PM

Hello Ibrahiim,
You are right - I dont like to be told that I am a leader in this field, as I am not - what I am, is a collector with an interest i the katars for many years, and through this interest I may have more knowledge than others.
To prove this to you. Yes, the 'VVV's', I dont know what they represent, but I too have seen them before. What about the hilt base? The hilt bases can be very different, but they are mostly represented in both the north and the south, and there are a lot of other questions I have, but I can only research few things at the time - I am sorry to say.

estcrh · 12th November 2017, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons.

Jens, I would disagree with this statement. As a close quarters weapon I do not think the thickness of the side bars would make much difference.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th November 2017, 04:40 PM

Eric, you could be right. Another question is, how many of the persons who could pay for these gold and silver decorated weapons, did take part in the actual battle? Did they sit on their elephants directing all the others?

9th November 2017, 04:48 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Most of the katars we see to day have relatively thin side guards, which would disqualify them as fighting weapons. To this come, as Robert writes in his last book, that some of them had older blades attached, which did not qualify them either. But have a look at this one, it is Rajput 18th century, and 52 cm long. It is made in one piece of dark crystalline wootz,and sounds like a tuning fork when hit on wood. Attached Images

9th November 2017, 03:23 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	One thing would be artistic gold koftgari? Lots of plain gold koftgari might indicate a later application.

9th November 2017, 07:42 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Jens, In my oppinion there is no such a thing as "court katar!" This is a made up term that was invented and is used by some art dealers to make their katars more saleable. As with regards to decorations, from all that I know, even the rajas used rather plain katars and saved the lavishly decorated ones for dress and parade. But that's only my "two cents."

9th November 2017, 02:36 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	You are right, I should not have written 'court katars', I should have written 'daily use katars', and maybe added 'of a better quality'. The question was not very clear, as I meant to ask 'compared to real fighting katars'. The fighting katars seem to be outnumbered, although they had many very big armies during centuries - sso maybe the fighting katars were the first ones to be melted down.

9th November 2017, 04:07 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Very astute observations placed here on the topic of katars, and as has been noted, some key qualifying factors toward classification. As Marius said, the bejeweled examples would seem to be reserved for illustrious wear during events where persons of high standing, up to and including royal figures. As with most forms of weapon, the functional, less decorated examples would certainly have been used in the field, or on campaign. The 'court' classification would be a presumed category in most cases, unless the weapon has specified provenance, as has been noted. As Jose has also well noted, later decoration which included that of gold koftgari, was often applied later. These circumstances could have been brought about for numerous reasons, some certainly for valid glorification of a favored weapon with important heritage, while others of course more marketable embellishment. Jens, your study and collecting of katars, as far as I have ever known, surpasses any other such specialized work in the arms and armour community. It would be outstanding to see your examples here with your observations!!! Please bring them on!!!

9th November 2017, 06:21 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Ibrahiim, You are right - I dont like to be told that I am a leader in this field, as I am not - what I am, is a collector with an interest i the katars for many years, and through this interest I may have more knowledge than others. To prove this to you. Yes, the 'VVV's', I dont know what they represent, but I too have seen them before. What about the hilt base? The hilt bases can be very different, but they are mostly represented in both the north and the south, and there are a lot of other questions I have, but I can only research few things at the time - I am sorry to say.

12th November 2017, 04:40 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Eric, you could be right. Another question is, how many of the persons who could pay for these gold and silver decorated weapons, did take part in the actual battle? Did they sit on their elephants directing all the others?