Blade identification needed on Moroccan nimcha sword.

[ariel]

Usually, such blades with 3 rather narrow fullers are of local manufacture.
It also seems to me that just at the level of stamps the fullers become somewhat curved: heated for stamping?
Kind of too crude for the Germans:-)

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by ariel

Usually, such blades with 3 rather narrow fullers are of local manufacture.
It also seems to me that just at the level of stamps the fullers become somewhat curved: heated for stamping?
Kind of too crude for the Germans:-)

Hello Ariel,

as a German I'm with you. It is a well known fact, that Kaskara-blades for example were manufactured in Solingen and exported to Africa. But they never had such poorly shaped fullers, never, even not in wartimes.


Roland

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Yes that is possible although what if this was straight originally and was hammered into a curved shape.

There is however, no unsharpened section at the forte supporting the idea of a local blade and I tend to agree on the crosses and Dukari moon styles being local...

[Kubur]

Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local.

Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade?
Thanks

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Where were the blade making centres in Morocco please?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Where were the blade making centres in Morocco please?

That is a very good question.
As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure there were 'blade making' centers in Morocco.
However, I did find the reference in "Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Mogul" by Anthony Tirri (2003), on p.25-26, where the author claims the primary manufacturing centers for swords were MEKNES, TETUAN and MARRAKESH

On page 19, the author notes that, "...while there was extensive use of IMPORTED WEAPON components, such as SWORD AND DAGGER BLADES, gun barrels or gunlocks, each region had particular style of overall weapon design, construction and decoration. Fez, Meknes, Marrakesh and Rabat had specific dagger designs and the regions of Tetuan, Taroudant, Ras el Oued and the Little Atlas mountain villages had identifiable gun styles".

The implication here is that while there were clearly local production centers for the making of the favored hilt, scabbard and for guns, the stocks....they clearly used imported working components and blades.

One unfortunate detraction in the Tirri reference, an otherwise beautifully produced book, is the lack of cited references which would have been most helpful in further checking into this topic .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is a very good question.
As I mentioned earlier, I am not sure there were 'blade making' centers in Morocco.
However, I did find the reference in "Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Mogul" by Anthony Tirri (2003), on p.25-26, where the author claims the primary manufacturing centers for swords were MEKNES, TETUAN and MARRAKESH

On page 19, the author notes that, "...while there was extensive use of IMPORTED WEAPON components, such as SWORD AND DAGGER BLADES, gun barrels or gunlocks, each region had particular style of overall weapon design, construction and decoration. Fez, Meknes, Marrakesh and Rabat had specific dagger designs and the regions of Tetuan, Taroudant, Ras el Oued and the Little Atlas mountain villages had identifiable gun styles".

The implication here is that while there were clearly local production centers for the making of the favored hilt, scabbard and for guns, the stocks....they clearly used imported working components and blades.

One unfortunate detraction in the Tirri reference, an otherwise beautifully produced book, is the lack of cited references which would have been most helpful in further checking into this topic .

Salaams Jim, Thanks for your helpful additions. If sword blades had been manufactured in Morocco Buttin would certainly have mentioned this since he lived there...but no mention was made..clearly on account of there being none produced possibly because so many European blades were on the market virtually flooded with European trade blades..Tirri was wrong footed on several counts not least the Central American, Cuban and Spanish colony blades he claimed were Moroccan when in fact they were absorbed into the Spanish colonies in the early 20thC during insurgencies..

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local.

Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade?
Thanks

yes of course I will add the lenght ASAP.
best
cerjak

[Jim McDougall]

In " Borders Away" , William Gilkerson, 1991, on p.88, there is a plate of mid 19th century cutlasses with this type of blades, three fullers, without the forte usually seen on European made blades. These seem to have had the celestial markings in the same location on the blade.

These kinds of blades were much favored in colonial markets, so these 'antique' style blades and so marked were produced well through the19thc. and Gilkerson notes that unknown numbers were produced for both East and West Indian markets.
These kinds of unrecorded productions and exports seem to have been quite rampant during the hyper development of Solingen's blade making during the Franco-Prussian war 1870-71, whose sudden end resulted in the excess of firms. It would seem that colonial markets offered convenient sources for products in volume.
Gilkerson states that Schnitzler & Kirshbaum of Solingen was one maker producing such early forms into the 19th century. There were certainly other makers and sub contractors producing these 'trade quality' blades, which probably did not necessarily meet standards held by the products for military contracts.

Though the Kirshbaum family had used the shooting star configuration in the early 19th c.(Bezdek, p.152), these particular groupings of moon and crosses are intended to replicate such antiquated markings of Germany on early blades. They represent imbued quality and the talismanic associations favored by tribal groups.

Briggs (1965) shows an example of nimcha with this blade type with triple fullers and lists it as European.

I am at this point unaware of locations in the Maghgreb where blades were made, and it seems that virtually all examples of nimcha have either blades of European origin, with some of Indian and other make.
It seems that Tirri may have noted some locations of edged weapon furbishing but I do not have that reference at the moment.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In " Borders Away" , William Gilkerson, 1991, on p.88, there is a plate of mid 19th century cutlasses with this type of blades, three fullers, without the forte usually seen on European made blades. These seem to have had the celestial markings in the same location on the blade.

These kinds of blades were much favored in colonial markets, so these 'antique' style blades and so marked were produced well through the19thc. and Gilkerson notes that unknown numbers were produced for both East and West Indian markets.
These kinds of unrecorded productions and exports seem to have been quite rampant during the hyper development of Solingen's blade making during the Franco-Prussian war 1870-71, whose sudden end resulted in the excess of firms. It would seem that colonial markets offered convenient sources for products in volume.
Gilkerson states that Schnitzler & Kirshbaum of Solingen was one maker producing such early forms into the 19th century. There were certainly other makers and sub contractors producing these 'trade quality' blades, which probably did not necessarily meet standards held by the products for military contracts.

Though the Kirshbaum family had used the shooting star configuration in the early 19th c.(Bezdek, p.152), these particular groupings of moon and crosses are intended to replicate such antiquated markings of Germany on early blades. They represent imbued quality and the talismanic associations favored by tribal groups.

Briggs (1965) shows an example of nimcha with this blade type with triple fullers and lists it as European.

I am at this point unaware of locations in the Maghgreb where blades were made, and it seems that virtually all examples of nimcha have either blades of European origin, with some of Indian and other make.
It seems that Tirri may have noted some locations of edged weapon furbishing but I do not have that reference at the moment.

Thank you Jim

As usually a very well documented comment.
Best

Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, I have seen a lot of "locals" and to me this blade is not local.

Cerjak is it possible to know the length of your blade?
Thanks

Dear Kubur

the blade lenght is 69 cm and 3.3 cm W near the hilt.
best
Cerjak

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Dear Kubur

the blade lenght is 69 cm and 3.3 cm W near the hilt.
best
Cerjak

Hi Jean Luc

It's what i was thinking, a real nimcha a short sword
total length should be around 80cm?

Are you sure that your nimcha is Moroccan?


Kubur

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Butins chart shows blades of varied lengths and for Nimcha used by cavalry in the Moroccan sense; they were long. The Pirate version for want of a better word were much shorter.
So far it has been difficult to see where in Morocco blades may have been produced except for daggers; Koummyya yes sword blades no. The majority are likely to be German in the trade blade mass export through North Africa and as already noted these were somewhat inferior qualities.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jean Luc

It's what i was thinking, a real nimcha a short sword
total length should be around 80cm?

Are you sure that your nimcha is Moroccan?


Kubur

That is of course the dilemma, in the true sense of the term, 'nimcha' is said to refer to a 'small' or 'short' sword. I have forgotten the details of this translation in discussions a short while back though.
However, while that term was sort of indiscriminately used by collectors to refer to these Maghrebi sabres. The classification of their variations has been debated/discussed often on these pages.

It is often presumed that these sabres are Moroccan, though they were known through the Maghrebi littoral. The one Briggs (1965) had was Algerian, and he was based in those regions when he wrote.
Stone wrote (1934, p.469) on NIMCHA, "...a Arab sabre with a knuckle guard rectangular at the base with drooping quillons on the opposite side. It is ALSO used in Morocco."

The Arab classification denotes the much wider use of these. The curious note is that 'nimcha' denotes a short sword, yet many, if not most of these are mounted with full length blades, even broadsword blades. These are mostly, undeniably, German in most cases. Some are ANDREA FERARA, which as we know were Solingen products.