Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 5th November 2017, 08:21 PM

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th November 2017, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

SEE your #35 on Benjamin Stone...who appears to have been a major importer of European blades into London viz; think the presence of the wolf/fox on Hounslow swords may be due to Benjamin Stone, a London Cutler and Freeman, who, from 1613 till 1642, was buying blades from everyone: including Solingen, Passau, Venice, Milan, Toledo and finally – of course – Hounslow; then selling the finished swords primarily to the Board of Ordnance.
For example: in June 1628 he delivered 800 swords to the Board of Ordnance: 350 Italian blades and 450 Solingen; all of these swords had basket hilts.

urbanspaceman · 7th November 2017, 10:02 PM

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed I did mean BENJAMIN Stone.
I am growing accustomed to the possibility that the Passau wolf emblem was never used outside of Germany. I know there is puzzle-meant and contention as to how it came to be used by Solingen - when they were in competition with Passau and also on the other side of the country. Perhaps someone knows the answer to that. Maybe I will get an answer when I visit Solingen. It certainly puts a very different complexion on the business of SB markings. I'm meeting with the SB Village Trust tomorrow, who apparently hold much of the village's archives; I'm hoping there are some answers in there.

urbanspaceman · 7th November 2017, 11:30 PM

I'm posting a link to a pdf of a chapter from Richard.D.Bezdek's book: Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland. I've exclaimed before just what a monumental work this is; and here is another example of that splendid endeavour. It is the history of swordmaking at Hounslow, and by extension Oxford. Apart from giving a full account of Benjamin Stone's significant achievements, it also introduces names that would become important in the Shotley Bridge venture. It further indicates the applications of petitions filed prior to Shotley Bridge for the exclusive right to manufacture hollow sword-blades, by the patented grinding process, at Hounslow, which is very significant in my opinion.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th November 2017, 07:43 PM

Salaams Keith ~ What an interesting article that is...I still couldn't see any reference in it to the type of mark; wolf or fox, if any, at Hounslow though several of the bladesmiths used the Me Fecit term...and as you say several went to Shotley Bridge. Good luck with that hoard of blades you are looking into... and the meeting with the council people etc...

urbanspaceman · 8th November 2017, 07:53 PM

I have unearthed such a treasure trove of information on the SB swordmakers today that it will take me several days to go through it all and extract the missing details of the story. Info from both the Shotley Bridge Heritage Trust and the Consett Heritage Trust.
Perhaps when all the facts are established (and that may never actually occur of course), the mystique may dwindle, taking the attraction of the adventure with it - but I doubt it.

urbanspaceman · 8th November 2017, 10:28 PM

Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

5th November 2017, 08:21 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Passau wolf I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge. Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

8th November 2017, 07:53 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Treasure Trove I have unearthed such a treasure trove of information on the SB swordmakers today that it will take me several days to go through it all and extract the missing details of the story. Info from both the Shotley Bridge Heritage Trust and the Consett Heritage Trust. Perhaps when all the facts are established (and that may never actually occur of course), the mystique may dwindle, taking the attraction of the adventure with it - but I doubt it.

8th November 2017, 10:28 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Hollows Apropos of ‘Hollows’: do you think it is possible that when they referred to hollow blades they were talking about fullers? I’m not convinced that Colichemarde and later were ground hollow; I’m wondering if they were drawn or hammered into shape… or both. Looking at my one hollow blade (from Klingenthal) it doesn’t seem practical from a materials point of view to start with a solid chunk of steel then grind the hollows into it. How is it done today, does anyone out there know? .

7th November 2017, 10:02 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	rock and a hard place Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed I did mean BENJAMIN Stone. I am growing accustomed to the possibility that the Passau wolf emblem was never used outside of Germany. I know there is puzzle-meant and contention as to how it came to be used by Solingen - when they were in competition with Passau and also on the other side of the country. Perhaps someone knows the answer to that. Maybe I will get an answer when I visit Solingen. It certainly puts a very different complexion on the business of SB markings. I'm meeting with the SB Village Trust tomorrow, who apparently hold much of the village's archives; I'm hoping there are some answers in there.

8th November 2017, 07:43 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Keith ~ What an interesting article that is...I still couldn't see any reference in it to the type of mark; wolf or fox, if any, at Hounslow though several of the bladesmiths used the Me Fecit term...and as you say several went to Shotley Bridge. Good luck with that hoard of blades you are looking into... and the meeting with the council people etc...