2 Victorian Lances

[kronckew]

i note the skull & crossed bones of no. 4 were used long before pirates (and johnny depp ) as a sign of death, and is frequently found on grave stones and markers in catacombs. i will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity.

i note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:

The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Charge of the 16th Lancers at the Battle of Aliwal by Mark Churms.

The 16th Lancers were part of General Sir Harry Smith's army consisitng of the British and Bengali army of 12,000 men and 30 guns against the Sikh army of 30,000 men and 67 guns of Ranjodh Singh during the First Sikh War which was fought on the 28th January 1848 in the Punjab in the North West of India. This painting depicts the 16th Lancers which were part of Brigadier Macdowell's brigade consisitng of the 16th Queen's Lancers, 3rd Bengal Light Cavalry and 4th Bengal Irregular Cavalry. The 16th Lancers charged several times during the action, breaking a number of Sikh infantry squares and overrunning a battery of Sikh artillery. The Lancers are shown wearing over their chapkas the white cotton cover which had been adopted for service in the tropics.

[Jim McDougall]

Good response Fernando!!
My bad on that movie title, "Last of the Bengal Lancers" was actually the book title of my late friend, Brig. Francis Ingall, who wrote that book as his biography about his service in these units in the Khyber Agency in the 30s.

The Gary Cooper movies was indeed "Lives of a Bengal Lancer" which was if I recall another autobiography by a British officer in the same period and regions.

On the underwear, of course I knew what you meant using analogy and was just responding in that same vein. I also realize that the discussion had taken an unfortunate but often unavoidable course in recognizing certain aspects of the use of a weapon. While understandable that we should not dwell on these matters, for those of us who are more historians than collectors, we often must include perspectives that are not always pleasant.
Actually warfare itself is not pleasant, but we are studying weapons, so it is sometimes a necessary evil to put the good with the bad I guess.
You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible.

The PC served well as a deviation, as I admit the topic was one encountered quite often in our pages, and always seems to get the editorial wheels grinding. Unfortunately, those kinds of topics usually end up with heated and conflicting results, even threads being closed.

The input on the lance pennons and detail toward Portuguese use is great! and the illustrations much appreciated. As you have noted, and as I have found in several sources, the pennon apparently did serve as an identifying element, contrary to what I had said in an earlier post. In certain cases there were separate units who had varied color combinations to specify themselves for reforming on maneuvers.
However, most of these lancer units seem to have used a nationally specific combination, such as black & white, Germany; red & white Poland (later adopted by England in recognition of the Polish ).

The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades, has in my view been thoroughly debunked.

Wayne, well noted about the skull and crossbones, a topic we have often covered in the many threads on pirates and their lore. As you have shown, this symbol goes back a long way into history, and was indeed used around burial places signifying of course death.
Actually the piratical connotation is believed to derive from the fact that in ships logs and rosters, a sailor when deceased had this symbol drawn next to his name. As many sailors became pirates, they recalled the practice, and considered themselves effectively 'outlaw' or 'dead to the world', thus the symbol for these brethren of the sea. Alternatively, the foreboding symbol of course signified death, or more accurately the 'no quarter' implication often flown by these pirates, previously signified by the 'red flag'.

The color red in signifying 'no quarter' was well known among Spanish forces as well, termed 'deguello' and accompanied by a musical durge (as seen in "The Alamo" movie). Perhaps the red color and addition of the skull and crossbones lent to the pennon choice seen here.

Ibrahiim, excellent image of the charge of the 16th Lancers at Aliwal. If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition.
After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle. Years later, the custom was adopted by troopers of the RCMP in Canada, however was abandoned when Queen Victoria objected to their use of a hallowed tradition held by the British 16th Lancers.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... You are right though, to try to minimize such details as possible ...

A difficult task for an arms historian, so i see ...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The notion of blood soaking cloth falls into the myth and lore category so often rampant in weapons study, and along with 'blood gutters' in sword blades ...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...If I may momentarily deviate to certain significance of a 'gory' circumstance lending itself to history and thereby, tradition. After this battle, there were many of these lances so encrusted with dried blood they were actually crimped. It became a custom of this unit to 'crimp' their pennons in honor of that battle...

Haven't you already narrated this chapter in post #41 of this thread

Take care .

[Jim McDougall]

Yup, sure did, but often the previous posts are overlooked, so reiterating is helpful, especially if a passage is necessary for a point.
You're right too, it is hard to be a historian in the world of collectors and dealers, and what I have come to understand as separate worlds.
Thanks again for the informative entries.

[asomotif]

Interesting thread.
Hope to add a lance to my collection some day.

Here is a picture I took at a demonstration last may 2017 at Huis Doorn (NL)

Best regards,
Willem

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The 16th Lancers at Aliwal.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I will assume there is nothing piratical about your police force's use of the decoration since 1980. it is used by an assortment of modern military units to signify ferocity...

Currently an infantile taste, i must say

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I note from wiki' skull and crossbones entry that:
The 2nd Lancers Regiment of the Portuguese Army also use the skull and crossbones as symbol and "Death or Glory" as motto, as the regiment was raised by a former colonel of the British 17th Lancers.

As mentioned above in pennant no. 5; and as i said, Portuguese (real) lancers units gave place to military police units, their barracks/units still being called of Lanceiros.

That guy in the right of your picture; was by then minister of Defence.