Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 4th November 2017, 03:23 PM

I was not associating 'me fecit' exclusively with Hounslow, merely that many verified examples had that marking - or the bunch of grapes; and, as you said: the 'H in the fox' is simply not seen other than in that one example. Again, I am curious to know whether the sword relates to the chronology of the Hounslow industry; do we know what the rest of it looks like?

That 'H in the fox' appears to be quite singular - despite its ubiquity (no oxymoron intended); I really find it hard to associate it with Hounslow though, far more realistic to assign it to Harvey in Birmingham, given the subsequent development by SH. Are there no Birmingham industry experts reading this who could shed light on the development of the mark by WH and/or SH?

A curious comment at the end of the St Margaret's article Ibrahiim: I've not seen mention of the business of the rolling-mill (or roll forge) patent taken over to Solingen to WKC, other than the time I referenced and questioned it earlier this year.
I said at that time, even Andre Wilms did not enlighten me; and I've not had any response to the question I pointedly posted in this thread or from the Solingen Blade Museum.

You know, when you think that we are knee-deep in castles in this country, and I know Alnwick - as an example - has huge collections of armour, I don't understand why a consensus has not been made by now of who has what - where. Anyone out there, of retirement age or independent means, fancy such an engrossing and immortalising endeavour?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th November 2017, 07:48 PM

Salaams Kieth~Regarding the above and #207. Yes it seems a huge raveled up mix of incredible puzzles, lies and deceit...I think a lot of it was done to throw the opposition...Misinformation etc

On #207 I think my wild guess may hold some water however, in that the only way W HARVEY marked blade could appear on a hilt many decades its junior (if that is a W Harvey that is) Is because it is a rehilt. Samuel Harvey had gone bankrupt ...and the firm was taken over by his son Samuel (same Christian name) then there was this appearance of the W Harvey artwork clearly indicating that who ever W Harvey was ...he was into swords and in Birmingham. Possibly the son of the second S Harvey...untraceable.

urbanspaceman · 5th November 2017, 08:21 PM

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th November 2017, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge.
Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

SEE your #35 on Benjamin Stone...who appears to have been a major importer of European blades into London viz; think the presence of the wolf/fox on Hounslow swords may be due to Benjamin Stone, a London Cutler and Freeman, who, from 1613 till 1642, was buying blades from everyone: including Solingen, Passau, Venice, Milan, Toledo and finally – of course – Hounslow; then selling the finished swords primarily to the Board of Ordnance.
For example: in June 1628 he delivered 800 swords to the Board of Ordnance: 350 Italian blades and 450 Solingen; all of these swords had basket hilts.

urbanspaceman · 7th November 2017, 10:02 PM

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed I did mean BENJAMIN Stone.
I am growing accustomed to the possibility that the Passau wolf emblem was never used outside of Germany. I know there is puzzle-meant and contention as to how it came to be used by Solingen - when they were in competition with Passau and also on the other side of the country. Perhaps someone knows the answer to that. Maybe I will get an answer when I visit Solingen. It certainly puts a very different complexion on the business of SB markings. I'm meeting with the SB Village Trust tomorrow, who apparently hold much of the village's archives; I'm hoping there are some answers in there.

urbanspaceman · 7th November 2017, 11:30 PM

I'm posting a link to a pdf of a chapter from Richard.D.Bezdek's book: Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland. I've exclaimed before just what a monumental work this is; and here is another example of that splendid endeavour. It is the history of swordmaking at Hounslow, and by extension Oxford. Apart from giving a full account of Benjamin Stone's significant achievements, it also introduces names that would become important in the Shotley Bridge venture. It further indicates the applications of petitions filed prior to Shotley Bridge for the exclusive right to manufacture hollow sword-blades, by the patented grinding process, at Hounslow, which is very significant in my opinion.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th November 2017, 07:43 PM

Salaams Keith ~ What an interesting article that is...I still couldn't see any reference in it to the type of mark; wolf or fox, if any, at Hounslow though several of the bladesmiths used the Me Fecit term...and as you say several went to Shotley Bridge. Good luck with that hoard of blades you are looking into... and the meeting with the council people etc...

4th November 2017, 03:23 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 648	Satanic Mills I was not associating 'me fecit' exclusively with Hounslow, merely that many verified examples had that marking - or the bunch of grapes; and, as you said: the 'H in the fox' is simply not seen other than in that one example. Again, I am curious to know whether the sword relates to the chronology of the Hounslow industry; do we know what the rest of it looks like? That 'H in the fox' appears to be quite singular - despite its ubiquity (no oxymoron intended); I really find it hard to associate it with Hounslow though, far more realistic to assign it to Harvey in Birmingham, given the subsequent development by SH. Are there no Birmingham industry experts reading this who could shed light on the development of the mark by WH and/or SH? A curious comment at the end of the St Margaret's article Ibrahiim: I've not seen mention of the business of the rolling-mill (or roll forge) patent taken over to Solingen to WKC, other than the time I referenced and questioned it earlier this year. I said at that time, even Andre Wilms did not enlighten me; and I've not had any response to the question I pointedly posted in this thread or from the Solingen Blade Museum. You know, when you think that we are knee-deep in castles in this country, and I know Alnwick - as an example - has huge collections of armour, I don't understand why a consensus has not been made by now of who has what - where. Anyone out there, of retirement age or independent means, fancy such an engrossing and immortalising endeavour?

7th November 2017, 10:02 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 648	rock and a hard place Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed I did mean BENJAMIN Stone. I am growing accustomed to the possibility that the Passau wolf emblem was never used outside of Germany. I know there is puzzle-meant and contention as to how it came to be used by Solingen - when they were in competition with Passau and also on the other side of the country. Perhaps someone knows the answer to that. Maybe I will get an answer when I visit Solingen. It certainly puts a very different complexion on the business of SB markings. I'm meeting with the SB Village Trust tomorrow, who apparently hold much of the village's archives; I'm hoping there are some answers in there.

4th November 2017, 07:48 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Kieth~Regarding the above and #207. Yes it seems a huge raveled up mix of incredible puzzles, lies and deceit...I think a lot of it was done to throw the opposition...Misinformation etc On #207 I think my wild guess may hold some water however, in that the only way W HARVEY marked blade could appear on a hilt many decades its junior (if that is a W Harvey that is) Is because it is a rehilt. Samuel Harvey had gone bankrupt ...and the firm was taken over by his son Samuel (same Christian name) then there was this appearance of the W Harvey artwork clearly indicating that who ever W Harvey was ...he was into swords and in Birmingham. Possibly the son of the second S Harvey...untraceable.

5th November 2017, 08:21 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 648	Passau wolf I'm coming to a very definite conclusion here, and I don't know what you cognoscenti will make of it - but here goes: I don't think the Passau wolf symbol was ever used outside of Germany. I think Bernard Stone brought in blades from Solingen to meet huge demand, and I think Mohll did the same thing up in Shotley Bridge. Has anyone seen a Hounslow marking AND the Passau wolf together? I am convinced that the SB version was done to deflect suspicion away from Mohll's smuggling; I don't know about Stone.

8th November 2017, 07:43 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Keith ~ What an interesting article that is...I still couldn't see any reference in it to the type of mark; wolf or fox, if any, at Hounslow though several of the bladesmiths used the Me Fecit term...and as you say several went to Shotley Bridge. Good luck with that hoard of blades you are looking into... and the meeting with the council people etc...