Very strange sword

Robert · 23rd October 2017, 03:53 AM

Though not officers quality, here is a photo of todays version of this piece. Photo compliments of local hardware store add.

Best,
Robert

Kubur · 23rd October 2017, 01:13 PM

Most of the time collectors compare only widely known forms.
To progress and to improve our knowledge we have to accept things that we don't know, including new shapes and new swords.
Trying to understand and to explain the function and meaning of this sword will be really useful.
To me it's a sword and not a tool (what a luxuous scabbard for a tool)...

Roland_M · 23rd October 2017, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Most of the time collectors compare only widely known forms.
To progress and to improve our knowledge we have to accept things that we don't know, including new shapes and new swords.
Trying to understand and to explain the function and meaning of this sword will be really useful.
To me it's a sword and not a tool (what a luxuous scabbard for a tool)...

As a real sword, it must be awful in combat. It is extremely front-heavy, which is a major disadvantage in combat, makes the sword slow and uncomfortable to swing. It needs a lot of power for correct movements from one ward to another (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_(fencing)). I think it is a parade-sword or something with a religious background.

Roland

David · 23rd October 2017, 03:17 PM

I have to agree with Kubur. This seems to be more than a tool to me. And not only is it a fancy scabbard for a tool, it has two rings to enable it to be carried as a sword as do the scabbards of other examples of this same weapon that we have seen. Obviously it has some specialized purpose given it's bizarre shape, but this wouldn't be the first odd sword form we have discussed on this forum, would it? I'm not convinced that this sword was meant for hamstringing horses. It seems a two-handed sword would be more useful for that task. But we have seen enough of these swords to know they are not simply a fanciful aberration. I agree that trying to understand it's purpose will be much more useful to this forum than simply writing off what we don't yet fully understand as simply being a tool.

Kubur · 23rd October 2017, 10:38 PM

Here it's all the information that I got... very little...
1809
Spain, 1st Empire, sword used by Spanish light cavalry to cut the horse's shanks of French heavy cavalry, unit dissolved just after Waterloo...

M ELEY · 23rd October 2017, 11:12 PM

Still wondering if not for hamstringing, perhaps for cutting the saddle strap to unhorse your opponent? Or snagging his clothes/knocking him from the saddle. Hey, it would allow the Spanish to try and capture the horse during the fray.

And speaking of weapons/tools with an odd purpose (to show that sleeve catchers and saddle straps cutters aren't impossible)-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukub%C5%8D

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2017, 03:42 AM

Really interesting discussion, and picking up where we left off some seven years ago. There is no doubt that there is an unfortunate truth in the deliberate disabling of a horseman by attacking his mount. One I found some years ago involved striking at the reins or bridle, thus the rider lost control of his horse.
I also recall a painting by Meissonier of a Napoleonic French officer on rearing horse looking to the rear with his sword raised, and it was referred to as 'rear guard', thus defending his horse being attacked (hind legs?).
I do not have that material presently, but thought it pertinent.

However, it is hard to imagine a sword designed specifically for such a distasteful action, yet virtually useless and awkward in NORMAL cavalry combat. Was this perhaps a special cadre of the unit with just this purpose?
Or was this weapon carried for such use, then the rider switched to the normal sabre for action otherwise engaged in the melee?

In 9 years, we have seen only two of these curious 'weapons', and the only reference we have as to their use is a specious display tag on one of them. One is rather austere in character, while the other is more elaborately mounted as if for an officer.

Even the action of disabling horses in battle is seldom addressed as a specific tactic, let alone given a specifically designed tool/weapon for this purpose. I am most curious about the interesting reference noted on the Spanish 1st Empire instance. Perhaps that might provide clues or a cited reference.

As has been noted, actions such as disabling horses, whether reins, bridle, hamstringing, cinch or whatever....these were achieved using the conventional weapons, not specially designed ones which would be awkward in the rest of the action.

On the other hand, tools cannot be discounted in combative use as many forms have been used as weapons, particularly polearms such as bill hooks and others such as machetes and implements like knives.

Interesting questions here, and looking forward to seeing if we can discover more.

* Fascinating entry on those Samurai police 'tools' Mark!!!!!

shayde78 · 24th October 2017, 05:06 AM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the passing similarity to the kopesh Although there are obviously a few millennium between the age of the kopesh's common use and the time of this example's manufacture, it seems such a weapon as pictured here could have been wielded in similar ways. Seems it would have been formidable against an armored foe, even of the bipedal type.

23rd October 2017, 03:53 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Though not officers quality, here is a photo of todays version of this piece. Photo compliments of local hardware store add. Best, Robert Attached Images

23rd October 2017, 01:13 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Most of the time collectors compare only widely known forms. To progress and to improve our knowledge we have to accept things that we don't know, including new shapes and new swords. Trying to understand and to explain the function and meaning of this sword will be really useful. To me it's a sword and not a tool (what a luxuous scabbard for a tool)...

23rd October 2017, 03:17 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,053	I have to agree with Kubur. This seems to be more than a tool to me. And not only is it a fancy scabbard for a tool, it has two rings to enable it to be carried as a sword as do the scabbards of other examples of this same weapon that we have seen. Obviously it has some specialized purpose given it's bizarre shape, but this wouldn't be the first odd sword form we have discussed on this forum, would it? I'm not convinced that this sword was meant for hamstringing horses. It seems a two-handed sword would be more useful for that task. But we have seen enough of these swords to know they are not simply a fanciful aberration. I agree that trying to understand it's purpose will be much more useful to this forum than simply writing off what we don't yet fully understand as simply being a tool.

23rd October 2017, 10:38 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Here it's all the information that I got... very little... 1809 Spain, 1st Empire, sword used by Spanish light cavalry to cut the horse's shanks of French heavy cavalry, unit dissolved just after Waterloo...

23rd October 2017, 11:12 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,077	Still wondering if not for hamstringing, perhaps for cutting the saddle strap to unhorse your opponent? Or snagging his clothes/knocking him from the saddle. Hey, it would allow the Spanish to try and capture the horse during the fray. And speaking of weapons/tools with an odd purpose (to show that sleeve catchers and saddle straps cutters aren't impossible)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukub%C5%8D

24th October 2017, 03:42 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Really interesting discussion, and picking up where we left off some seven years ago. There is no doubt that there is an unfortunate truth in the deliberate disabling of a horseman by attacking his mount. One I found some years ago involved striking at the reins or bridle, thus the rider lost control of his horse. I also recall a painting by Meissonier of a Napoleonic French officer on rearing horse looking to the rear with his sword raised, and it was referred to as 'rear guard', thus defending his horse being attacked (hind legs?). I do not have that material presently, but thought it pertinent. However, it is hard to imagine a sword designed specifically for such a distasteful action, yet virtually useless and awkward in NORMAL cavalry combat. Was this perhaps a special cadre of the unit with just this purpose? Or was this weapon carried for such use, then the rider switched to the normal sabre for action otherwise engaged in the melee? In 9 years, we have seen only two of these curious 'weapons', and the only reference we have as to their use is a specious display tag on one of them. One is rather austere in character, while the other is more elaborately mounted as if for an officer. Even the action of disabling horses in battle is seldom addressed as a specific tactic, let alone given a specifically designed tool/weapon for this purpose. I am most curious about the interesting reference noted on the Spanish 1st Empire instance. Perhaps that might provide clues or a cited reference. As has been noted, actions such as disabling horses, whether reins, bridle, hamstringing, cinch or whatever....these were achieved using the conventional weapons, not specially designed ones which would be awkward in the rest of the action. On the other hand, tools cannot be discounted in combative use as many forms have been used as weapons, particularly polearms such as bill hooks and others such as machetes and implements like knives. Interesting questions here, and looking forward to seeing if we can discover more. * Fascinating entry on those Samurai police 'tools' Mark!!!!!

24th October 2017, 05:06 AM	#8
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 443	I'm surprised no one has mentioned the passing similarity to the kopesh Although there are obviously a few millennium between the age of the kopesh's common use and the time of this example's manufacture, it seems such a weapon as pictured here could have been wielded in similar ways. Seems it would have been formidable against an armored foe, even of the bipedal type.