The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:21 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Don F.
Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry.

The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades.

The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades.

The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term.
These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!!

Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies.

All very best regards,
Jim

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:22 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, .
Perfect, isn't it?
( I hope i am not exagerating )
Fernando
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:23 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 PM

Posted by:
S.Al-Anizi
Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Arabia

Thanks Jim and all other guys for this rich thread, definetly deserves being a sticky.

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:24 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 09:41 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for posting the 'anchor' this is the symbol I was alluding to before and it reminded me that it was on LEW's kaskara (not nimcha). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sudan+german

In the process of trying to find LEW's kaskara I found Jim's four crosses thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=nimcha+german
I will see what I can find on them now that I know what to look for.

Thanks and welcome Don F. That mort is exactly what i was talking about with Hounslow hilts with German blades.

Good Stuff
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:24 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 10:22 PM

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding responses guys, and now we are rollin' !!!
Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links.
S.Al Anizi, thank you so much for the kind words and acknowledging the thread, which is developing just as I had hoped to prove a valuable resource for us all.

I hope everyone is noting and reviewing the thread as we go as when a thread becomes multipaged it is often easy to miss important posts, just as I did with Don's significant contribution.

Jeff, thank you for finding the crosses! The three crosses I saw were linear, and as noted on one of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas. These crosses 'pattee' are in an interesting configuration, and seem in a cross pattern itself. We do know that the four cardinal directions were key in folk religion, and again, we wonder if the duplicity here is intended to compound the potential talismanic potency.

Thank you guys!
All best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:25 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 10:37 PM

Posrted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More on the Orb and Cross. This is from Gyngell's Armourers Marks Pg30

Jeff
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:25 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 10:47 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links ...
Jim (Quote)

A great anchor allright, and Jeff has just found out where i got it from .
I have completely forgotten i picked it from this very Forum, it is on Lew's kaskara. I must have saved the picture when i was searching on the anchor symbol, as familiar to the one struck on the sword cane of my posting #58. But you will see this "robbery" was well intentioned. We say over here that you catch a liar faster than you catch a cripple .
Sorry Lew, for the hijacking. But it's all because it's a great anchor.
Fernando
.

18th October 2017, 06:21 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 06:49 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Don F. Please accept my apologies! I just reviewed the thread and realized that I entirely overlooked your excellent post with these interesting examples! It often frustrates me when others disregard previous posts or ignore them, and here I've inadvertantly done just that very sorry. The first sword you show appears to be a 19th century military sabre for an officer, with what seems to be somewhat earlier blade, which carrys the cabalistic markings and military panopolies characteristic of many cavalry sabre blades into the mid 19th century. The crescent moon with stars are often applied to the German trade blades. The Arabian sa'if is a late 18th century Yemeni/Hadrahmaut example and most interesting with the running wolf blade! These Arabian swords according to Elgood seem to have mounted in India in Hyderabad. We may presume that possibly this Solingen blade may have entered India via trade on the Malabar Coast there and then made it to Hyderabad. If it had entered via the Mahratta trade it would likely have been mounted in a firangi. This is all of course presuming the sword had been mounted in India. There are of course many other scenarios, and this is intended simply to illustrate plausible movement of these blades. The third example is a beautiful example of the English 'Mortuary' sword. I would add here that the term is actually a misnomer since these were supposedly created carrying the 'death mask' of Charles I, thus given the term. Actually these basket hilt horsemans swords predated the event, and examples with the face later prompted the term. These English swords often had German blades, and many are known with ANDREA FERARA, including one carried by Cromwell. The German makers at Hounslow were actually brought in by Royalists to produce weapons there, and this example well illustrates the ME FECIT SOLINGEN application used by the Hounslow smiths. It also supports the possibility that the Hounslow smiths may have applied the ANDREA FERARA as well.......although it is obvious that the many Scottish basket hilt blades with this marking were emphatically not from Hounslow!! Thank you so much Don for posting these, and again please accept my apologies. All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:45 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:22 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A nice anchor Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This is one the most incisive and well punctioned anchors i have seen. I picked it from the Internet, October last year, and i deeply regret i didn't register its provenance ...most probably a selling site. All i ( surely) know is that it was struck on a boy's kaskara, . Perfect, isn't it? ( I hope i am not exagerating ) Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 08:02 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:23 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 09:33 PM Posted by: S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Thanks Jim and all other guys for this rich thread, definetly deserves being a sticky. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:47 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:24 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 09:41 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Fernando, Thanks for posting the 'anchor' this is the symbol I was alluding to before and it reminded me that it was on LEW's kaskara (not nimcha). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ht=sudan+german In the process of trying to find LEW's kaskara I found Jim's four crosses thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=nimcha+german I will see what I can find on them now that I know what to look for. Thanks and welcome Don F. That mort is exactly what i was talking about with Hounslow hilts with German blades. Good Stuff Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:48 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:25 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 10:37 PM Posrted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada More on the Orb and Cross. This is from Gyngell's Armourers Marks Pg30 Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:51 PM.