The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:02 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Jeff, good call on the ME FECIT SOLINGEN inscription, which typically was with a makers name, presumably at least. It seems that the catalogued items in the Wallace Collection carry a number of examples of this combination, the ones I found mostly 17th century rapiers. I think what is most interesting about these presumed Latin inscriptions is that the spellings, wording and syntax are typically somewhat inconsistant. Also the weapons carrying these blades in the period suggested are actually Italian, and while there are the discussed inscriptions such as one c.1650:
PAVLLV WILLEMS ME FECIT SOLINGEN
there are two others, both Italian rapiers with suggested Spanish blades:
G.N.A.C.I.O.F.R.Z. IHN TOLEDO (c.1670)
and IN.TOLEDO (c.1610)

Having considered that Italy had primarily its own blade making centers, it seems interesting that these rapiers, all Italian, were mounted with what quite possibly were all German blades. Yet another Italian rapier c.1625, was mounted with a blade inscribed :
FRIEDRICH MVNICH

Conversely, a French, possibly Dutch 'pillow sword' had a blade inscribed:
IN.VIENNA.MEI.FECIT
Another: IHN.SOLLINGN

Another with the a version of the famed name:
ANDREA ME FECIT Italian c.1600

It would seem that even during these early times, the remarkable commercialization of German blades reveal many adaptions in the inscriptions placed on them. The variations of suggested places of manufacture were meant to appeal to apparantly clientele in a number of countries, and it seems the inscriptions are placed somewhat accordingly. The marketing acumen of this German industry seems amazing!

I think the most interesting factor with these inscriptions is not only the varying combinations, but what seems to me to be transliteration and unusual spellings, especially with intermingled Latin. If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto'
NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically, at least this was once suggested as I tried to learn more on the phrases. As you have noted, the sequence or syntax as with the ME FECIT wording may be off.

Jeff, although using 'Occams cigar' as you noted often reveals nothing especially unusual....its always possible there is more to it than means the eye!! ....and you can NEVER spend too much time in musty old books!!!!but keep the cigar outa there!!!

All the very best,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:03 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 12:54 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto'
NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically ... Jim (Quote)

Unless a cigar is not just a cigar, i would say, in my empirical view, this phrase is well built and completely Spanish ... Castillian, to be precise.

But as you very well know, they used it all over, as also Portuguese sword makers; sometimes well spelt, sometimes not.

All the best
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:04 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 02:13 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

"Three in one"
Speaking of multi marks, and orbes+crosses mentioned by Jeff.
In this Portuguese specimen, we can find mottos, symbols and marks ... all for the price of one
These "Sail" guard swords come right after the cup hilt examples depicted in "Armas e os Bar�es", by Eduardo Nobre.
Maybe (some of) these are not trade marks, but maybe they still can fit in
Fernando

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:04 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 04:23 PM

Posted by:
Marc
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Madrid / Barcelona

I agree, 100% Spanish, Catillian, as Fernando says. The actual (by actual I mean modern) spelling would be :

"No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor".

From here, all the variations and ortographical creativity that you may imagine

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:04 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 04:40 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

I won't quote George Carlin's version of 'Occam's Cigar', suffice to say sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar . To further your obsrvation's I believe in past discussions E.B. Erickson has noted that most Hounslow hangers had imported ME FECIT SOLINGEN blades.

Hi Marc and Fernando,

Thanks for the clarification on the motto. I recently met someone of Scottish ancestry whose family motto was " NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON". He was very impressed when I showed him photo's of my baskethilt with the motto on it. He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile .

All the Best
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:05 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM

Posted by.
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote)

Small world

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:05 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

There are several on Danish military white weapons from 1600 to about 1750, from then on they seem to be more royal markings.

.

18th October 2017, 06:02 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2007, 12:25 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Jeff and Fernando, Jeff, good call on the ME FECIT SOLINGEN inscription, which typically was with a makers name, presumably at least. It seems that the catalogued items in the Wallace Collection carry a number of examples of this combination, the ones I found mostly 17th century rapiers. I think what is most interesting about these presumed Latin inscriptions is that the spellings, wording and syntax are typically somewhat inconsistant. Also the weapons carrying these blades in the period suggested are actually Italian, and while there are the discussed inscriptions such as one c.1650: PAVLLV WILLEMS ME FECIT SOLINGEN there are two others, both Italian rapiers with suggested Spanish blades: G.N.A.C.I.O.F.R.Z. IHN TOLEDO (c.1670) and IN.TOLEDO (c.1610) Having considered that Italy had primarily its own blade making centers, it seems interesting that these rapiers, all Italian, were mounted with what quite possibly were all German blades. Yet another Italian rapier c.1625, was mounted with a blade inscribed : FRIEDRICH MVNICH Conversely, a French, possibly Dutch 'pillow sword' had a blade inscribed: IN.VIENNA.MEI.FECIT Another: IHN.SOLLINGN Another with the a version of the famed name: ANDREA ME FECIT Italian c.1600 It would seem that even during these early times, the remarkable commercialization of German blades reveal many adaptions in the inscriptions placed on them. The variations of suggested places of manufacture were meant to appeal to apparantly clientele in a number of countries, and it seems the inscriptions are placed somewhat accordingly. The marketing acumen of this German industry seems amazing! I think the most interesting factor with these inscriptions is not only the varying combinations, but what seems to me to be transliteration and unusual spellings, especially with intermingled Latin. If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically, at least this was once suggested as I tried to learn more on the phrases. As you have noted, the sequence or syntax as with the ME FECIT wording may be off. Jeff, although using 'Occams cigar' as you noted often reveals nothing especially unusual....its always possible there is more to it than means the eye!! ....and you can NEVER spend too much time in musty old books!!!!but keep the cigar outa there!!! All the very best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:32 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:03 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2007, 12:54 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto' NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically ... Jim (Quote) Unless a cigar is not just a cigar, i would say, in my empirical view, this phrase is well built and completely Spanish ... Castillian, to be precise. But as you very well know, they used it all over, as also Portuguese sword makers; sometimes well spelt, sometimes not. All the best Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:34 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:04 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2007, 02:13 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal "Three in one" Speaking of multi marks, and orbes+crosses mentioned by Jeff. In this Portuguese specimen, we can find mottos, symbols and marks ... all for the price of one These "Sail" guard swords come right after the cup hilt examples depicted in "Armas e os Bar�es", by Eduardo Nobre. Maybe (some of) these are not trade marks, but maybe they still can fit in Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:35 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:04 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2007, 04:23 PM Posted by: Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona I agree, 100% Spanish, Catillian, as Fernando says. The actual (by actual I mean modern) spelling would be : "No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor". From here, all the variations and ortographical creativity that you may imagine . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:32 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:04 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2007, 04:40 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Jim, I won't quote George Carlin's version of 'Occam's Cigar', suffice to say sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar . To further your obsrvation's I believe in past discussions E.B. Erickson has noted that most Hounslow hangers had imported ME FECIT SOLINGEN blades. Hi Marc and Fernando, Thanks for the clarification on the motto. I recently met someone of Scottish ancestry whose family motto was " NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON". He was very impressed when I showed him photo's of my baskethilt with the motto on it. He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile . All the Best Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:33 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:05 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM Posted by. fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff D ... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote) Small world . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:34 PM.