The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More Wolves from Cronau...
2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal
3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel
4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection
6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490
7. A Dresden sword c. 1559
8.-15. more developed wolf figures
16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit'

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Now, that's really something, Jeff
Fernando

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Very good Jeff, thank you very much.
Jens

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:57 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens!

Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau?

The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade!

I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c.

Jeff,
Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base.

Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations!

All very best wishes,
Jim

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:58 PM

Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim.

Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given.
I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands .

All the Best
Jeff
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:59 PM

Old 24th November 2007, 12:54 AM

Posted by:
Don F.
Member

Join Date: Nov 2007

Greetings everyone, I found these swords that may fit into this forum nicely.
I can�t give you any intellectual insights on any of these swords, but what I can give is, some pictures worth a thousand words each. Hope these will help in a small way, in your endeavors to understand early makers marks.

The first sword may be a German export to Turkey; or not.

The second one is an Arab Shamshir with either a locally made blade, or an import, or a battlefield pickup. Don�t know for sure. I know you will probably like this one. It has your running wolf mark.

The last one is an English Mortuary sword with blade manufactured in Solingen. Lets run these babies up the flagpole and see if any body salutes.

Ya, I know, I can�t believe I said that�

Best regards everyone.
Don F
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:00 PM

Old 24th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification?
What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin.

Jeff
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18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada More Wolves from Cronau... 2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal 3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel 4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection 6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490 7. A Dresden sword c. 1559 8.-15. more developed wolf figures 16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit' . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:24 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Now, that's really something, Jeff Fernando , Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:25 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Very good Jeff, thank you very much. Jens . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:25 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:57 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens! Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau? The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade! I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c. Jeff, Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base. Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations! All very best wishes, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:26 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:58 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim. Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given. I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands . All the Best Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:27 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:59 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th November 2007, 12:54 AM Posted by: Don F. Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Greetings everyone, I found these swords that may fit into this forum nicely. I can�t give you any intellectual insights on any of these swords, but what I can give is, some pictures worth a thousand words each. Hope these will help in a small way, in your endeavors to understand early makers marks. The first sword may be a German export to Turkey; or not. The second one is an Arab Shamshir with either a locally made blade, or an import, or a battlefield pickup. Don�t know for sure. I know you will probably like this one. It has your running wolf mark. The last one is an English Mortuary sword with blade manufactured in Solingen. Lets run these babies up the flagpole and see if any body salutes. Ya, I know, I can�t believe I said that� Best regards everyone. Don F . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:28 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:00 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th November 2007, 06:09 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification? What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin. Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:29 PM.