The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:55 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:12 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:55 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:35 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

This is taken from Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie 1885 ed. Pg 18

18-32 were located in the Dresden Museum. 32 was attributed to Johannes Wundes

Jeff

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More Wolves from Cronau...
2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal
3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel
4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection
6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490
7. A Dresden sword c. 1559
8.-15. more developed wolf figures
16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit'

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Now, that's really something, Jeff
Fernando

,

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:56 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Very good Jeff, thank you very much.
Jens

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:57 PM

Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens!

Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau?

The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade!

I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c.

Jeff,
Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base.

Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations!

All very best wishes,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:58 PM

Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim.

Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given.
I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands .

All the Best
Jeff
.

18th October 2017, 05:55 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 05:12 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Jim, How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added. Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:22 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:55 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 05:35 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada This is taken from Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie 1885 ed. Pg 18 18-32 were located in the Dresden Museum. 32 was attributed to Johannes Wundes Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:23 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada More Wolves from Cronau... 2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal 3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel 4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection 6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490 7. A Dresden sword c. 1559 8.-15. more developed wolf figures 16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit' . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:24 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Now, that's really something, Jeff Fernando , Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:25 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:56 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Very good Jeff, thank you very much. Jens . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:25 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:57 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens! Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau? The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade! I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c. Jeff, Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base. Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations! All very best wishes, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:26 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:58 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim. Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given. I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands . All the Best Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 07:27 PM.