The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 14th November 2007, 10:54 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade? Quote.


No Jim, the only marks are the crescent (and decrescent ) moons. Three pairs of them, at least on the showing side.
Just a little note. This sword is labelled as German by the Museum, but this is not necessarily a fact. I once showed a full set of pictures to Philip Tom and he sugested it could be Hungarian, quicker than German. This just in case someone finds its quoted origin passive of doubt.
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[fernando]

Old 15th November 2007, 12:29 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Thanks for clarifying, now that I look at it again you pointed that out in the picture you posted but I missed it. It is interesting to see these markings issued in pairs and spaced combination in this way. Again, this would suggest markings that are so placed in a type of motif rather than the talismanic combinations that appeared on many European sword blades, especially often seen on hunting hangers as described previously.
It seems I recall a discussion involving 'executioners' swords or 'heading' swords and Philip noted the Hungarian examples. With his knowledge of Eastern European swords I am inclined to agree that this is probably as he suggests. The hanger type hilt also seems to correspond more with the East European suggestion, rather than German. Hungarian produced blades also used the esoteric symbols in variation much as seen on the Solingen blades.

I have often wondered what was key to the Saharan swordsmiths choosing the paired crescent moons such as these to place on takouba blades, and in some instances on kaskara blades to the east. It seems that these paired marks (termed 'dukari' as claimed by Briggs) they occur consistantly and become increasingly stylized to near unrecognizable form, but positioned in the same manner.

While the markings imitated by native makers suggested certain powers to be imbued in the blade as perceived from the emphasis of these on the imported European blades, it is interesting to consider the meanings of the markings as they diffuse cross culturally. What began as occult allegorical symbolism on the blades in Europe, evolved into associated quality marks by certain makers, then into folk magic and power imbuing talismanic symbolism in native perception.

This is the thought that brought me to wanting to pursue these markings more deeply, and I hope we can find more examples while we continue to consider those you and the others have shown.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 16th November 2007, 03:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

On some trade blades I have seen there appears an apparantly stamped grouping of three crosses of the 'maltese cross' shape. The most readliy recalled example I have seen occurred on the blade of one of 'Zanzibar' form of 'nimchas' (these with a crossguard ring can be seen in the 1933 publication of the Buttin collection). This example was from a grouping of these sa'if's that apparantly came from Zanzibar and were located in number in Yemen some time ago.

This representation of the triple crosses clearly suggests similar markings from European blades that of course carry the Christian religious symbolism of the Holy Trinity that often occurred in various application in makers marks and talismanic motif. However, as we have discussed, the numeric three has a very wide application in not only the symbolism in most other religions, but in esoteric and occult symbolism and allegory.

A number of years ago while visiting an alchemical museum at a castle in Heidelburg, Germany I noticed that among an apothecaries cabinet's drawers was one that supposedly had housed a chemical compound considered a poison. On the drawer were the same triple maltese crosses, that I was told symbolized death. I found that interesting and recalling the triple crosses seen on the Zanzibar blade, and have often wondered if that application might have had any connection with occult symbolism on blades.

We do know that alchemical allegory was employed in talismanic motif on European blades, and that such symbolism likely influenced blacksmiths and swordsmiths well aware of alchemical esoterica. The maltese cross occurs as a component of symbols of numerous elements and chemicals in alchemical charts.
Could there be a connection with the maltese cross symbol from alchemy, applied in three as on the apothecary poison warning, to markings used by makers on blades? Obviously the native copies found in Zanzibar were applied in imitation of European markings much as the dukari on takoubas without awareness of such meaning, or could the meaning have been known?

I'd like to hear what others think on this, and would like to know if anyone else has seen triple cross markings on blades whether European or native. Also, if anyone has the valuable Wallace collection book (a 2 volume set) which is profusely illustrated with European makers stamps and markings, perhaps any reference to same from that source.

Thanks very much !

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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2007, 02:14 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

While apparantly no takers on the three cross markings query, I still have nothing more to add except that ,getting technical on thier form, I guess they are termed 'cross pattee' rather than Maltese as I termed them in description.
I am hoping someone out there has seen such markings on blades, whether European or on the sa'if blades I have described.....Oriental Arms???? can you help?
Meanwhile, there must be other markings seen on either trade blades or European blades that the readership has questions on. It seems that over the years this has come up often, which is the purpose of this thread..to provide a resource we can turn to for reference. The books that often contain these markings seen on trade blades and were copied by native smiths are hard to find and when they are found, very expensive. If we can share the information, we can all benefit.
I'm very grateful for those who have participated so far, and would be grateful if others will join also.
Thanks very much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2007, 10:14 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I first hesitated before posting this, as a trade mark.
It represents a version not yet included here as, being a motto, is a sentimental one, and not an honourable one, as already discussed in this thread.
But having seen this motto in two different specimens, in two distinct places, from rather diverse provenances, i presume this is after all a mark thas has been applied to swords from the trading circuits.
The motto is NO AL AMOR QUE NO CAVSE TROMENTO / SI NO ES FIRME CON ESTA ME LO PAGARAS = No to love that doesn�t bring torment / If it is not firm, you will pay me with this one.
I have it myself in a XVII-XVIII century rapier blade, mounted in a stick sword, possibly set up in the XIX century.
The other example is found in a beautyfull silver hilted cup guard sword, presently at the Oporto Military Museum, labeled mid XVIII century.
I ask you a thousand pardons if this situation doesn't fall within this thread theme.

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[fernando]

Old 20th November 2007, 12:09 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent Fernando!!!!
These inscriptions do indeed fall into the topic of this thread, and thank you so much for continuing to contribute here as the material you are sharing is not often seen in the standard references.
The inscriptions on blades, while not necessarily trademarks, are often found on blades that end up mounted in ethnographic weapons. The 'Spanish motto' (Draw me not without reason etc.) is one that appears widely, and as you pointed out earlier in the thread, is definitely earlier than the 18th century as I had originally thought. I would like to address that motto later in the thread. This appears on the 'Spanish' blades now known to have been produced in Solingen, and are found throughout the Spanish colonies.

Another key example is of course 'Andrea Ferara'......it is typically held that there was indeed such a maker, allegedly in Belluno. But is this appellation actually a name....or a term? such as Andrew (=true), ferara (=iron). It is interesting to note an instance of a Spanish rapier that carried the inscription four times over the blade.....perhaps to multiply the potency?

It seems that these interesting phrases/mottos do occur in duplication, but some such as this only in limited number. It seems to imply the same maker or shop, but may simply be copied by another. I know that often German makers had workers limited in literary skills and inscriptions, which accounts for the often unusual and transliterated versions of spellings and wording.

Thank you again Fernando! Your help and interest is very much appreciated and we will continue to investigate more on these and many other marks, inscriptions and any anomalies that seem consistant on trade blades.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:13 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Amazing how far down the thread moved in one day!!!
Although it seems there is apparantly not much interest in markings and inscriptions on trade blades, despite the fact that as I have mentioned the questions do come up from time to time, but there is perspective I would add to perhaps attract the attention of readers and members.
While most of the emphasis, especially lately on threads here,has been on SEA weapons, Indonesian and Filipino, it may be prove interesting to note that European blades do show up on numbers of weapons in these spheres. I have seen a weapon, I believe classified as a lombok, mounted with an 18th century German, possibly Dutch blade. It seems that piso podang are sometimes ? mounted with European trade blades though I think many are Indian, Persian or Caucasian.
The fact that the Sinhalese kastane is often mounted with European hanger blades, it seems almost exclusively is most interesting, since much of the high grade steel used in India was forged there and exported. The most interesting of the kastane blades are the examples found with Dutch East India Company markings (Mikey....back!! back! I say...no shaver kool here!!!

Perhaps any of the readers or collectors specializing in SEA or Indonesia, Philippines might share observations on trade blades they have seen...share examples?

Rick, have Moro weapons ever been seen with European blades? I have seen discussions of talismanic markings on some of these, any with possible associations to European markings?

I really think the subject matter here is worthwhile, and will prove most interesting and helpful if developed with the participation of those in the spectrum of fields of study well presented in our forum.

I will add a note to my previous discussion on the three cross markings, as my research continues, and I will continue to share my findings. In the Wallace Collection, there is a German 'executioners sword' c.1500 which is engraved with three crosses. It seems to me that this three cross mark has appeared on other examples of these grim weapons elsewhere as well. Obviously the religious connotation prevails here, and the suggestion has to do with the salvation of the criminal ? or along that line.

Any thoughts or ideas? Still looking for other instances of triple cross markings as seen on Zanzibar sa'if's.....anybody seen them on any other blades?


All best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Some Belluno area marks, by member AndreaFeraro89:


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[AndreaFeraro89]

More Belunese area marks!
From Catalogue of the Doge Palace armoury by Franzoi

Enjoy!