The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:26 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 11:29 AM

Posted by:
katana
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword.
it did not want to come live with me tho........ Quote.

]

Hi Kronckew You beat me to it .....I was surprised at the final price....have to agree that its a hunting hanger ...but think it was re-hilted ...the blade shape seems a little unusual for a hunting sword though, and I suspect that the blade has been shortened and the tip re-profiled.

Regards David

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:27 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 12:47 PM

Posted by:
Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA

Thumbs up

Jim, thanks for starting this thread (and bringing it to my attention--I owe you an email!).

Fascinating stuff, gentlemen. I'm going to add this one to the "Classics" thread.

Let's keep this going!

Andrew
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:27 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 01:55 PM

Posted by:
kronckew

Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location:
CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK:

does look very hangerish.

most of the naval officers, while having a proper fancy sword for dress, would actually carry a hanger into battle as shipboard space tended to be a bit tight, they if i recall would sometimes have similar simple grips and guards....

in the u.s. navy they ultimately barred officers from carrying hangers as they were all different & too functional, not gentlemanly. of course, the officers at the sharp end took no notice and continued using them (and/or 'enlisted' cutlass) up till they stopped boarding enemy vessels....the war dept. eventually outlawed swords entirely & made officers turn them in for scrap, but wisdom prevailed and they were reinstated. i carried mine around for 5 years active duty & only got to wear it once in a parade, then once or twice in my active reserve days. the naval officers sword has degenerated into a pretty sliver of non-functional unsharpened polished & etched steel; i'd rather have a hanger.

it'd be interesting to know if this was a 17c. passau sabre captured & converted to a hanger for use by an english naval or infantry officer.
Last edited by kronckew : 13th November 2007 at 02:08 PM.
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:28 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 11:05 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I feel deeply frustrated
I have deliberatily gone back to the Oporto Military Museum, in order to improve the pictures of this situation, but i couldn't manage better than the last time i was there. It is rather dificult to picture determined positions through the glass windows.
This is labelled as an end XVI century German beheading sword, of unusual quality, where the double human half moons face each other, etched three times along the visible side of the blade ... probably also on the other side.
I had sort of convinced the Directing Colonel to open the window for better pictures ( he owed me one ) but he went on a meeting and didn't show up untill i gave up.
I hope this is usefull the way it is.
Fernando

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:28 PM

Old 14th November 2007, 06:53 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for regenerating this thread! and Andrew thank you for the kind words and including the thread in the classics, which is great as I had hoped this would become a standing resource on this important data that we could all use as a reference.

Kronckew, thank you for posting the marking from the hanger you note, and I'm with you in the regrets that you did not acquire it. The running wolf looks to be a 17th century mark and quite likely would have appeared on hanger blades. However, the mark may be from German swordsmiths who were emplaced in England at Hounslow in mid 17th century, as well as later in the century at Shotley Bridge. In both cases there were hangers produced, and as you have noted, became popular in maritime use. These short, heavy blade swords were key for action in the tight quarters aboard ships, and were often included among arms favored by pirates as well as the officers of commercial ships they preyed upon. I have seen the running wolf mark on these English hangers, though it appeared without makers marks and was likely used by some of the German swordsmiths independantly as a general quality symbol. Some of these seem to have been inlaid brass.

As Katana has suggested, it would seem likely that a hanger might have been reworked or remounted during working life, especially among private weapons.

Fernando, thank you for your excellent post and for the extra effort at showing the marks and the sword which really is interesting. I had often wondered about the crescent moon markings use on German blades, and this shows that they did occur paired, which I once thought appeared only on the Saharan blades. While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade?

All best regards and appreciation,
Jim

,

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:29 PM

Old 14th November 2007, 10:54 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade? Quote.

No Jim, the only marks are the crescent (and decrescent ) moons. Three pairs of them, at least on the showing side.
Just a little note. This sword is labelled as German by the Museum, but this is not necessarily a fact. I once showed a full set of pictures to Philip Tom and he sugested it could be Hungarian, quicker than German. This just in case someone finds its quoted origin passive of doubt.
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:51 PM

Old 15th November 2007, 12:29 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Thanks for clarifying, now that I look at it again you pointed that out in the picture you posted but I missed it. It is interesting to see these markings issued in pairs and spaced combination in this way. Again, this would suggest markings that are so placed in a type of motif rather than the talismanic combinations that appeared on many European sword blades, especially often seen on hunting hangers as described previously.
It seems I recall a discussion involving 'executioners' swords or 'heading' swords and Philip noted the Hungarian examples. With his knowledge of Eastern European swords I am inclined to agree that this is probably as he suggests. The hanger type hilt also seems to correspond more with the East European suggestion, rather than German. Hungarian produced blades also used the esoteric symbols in variation much as seen on the Solingen blades.

I have often wondered what was key to the Saharan swordsmiths choosing the paired crescent moons such as these to place on takouba blades, and in some instances on kaskara blades to the east. It seems that these paired marks (termed 'dukari' as claimed by Briggs) they occur consistantly and become increasingly stylized to near unrecognizable form, but positioned in the same manner.

While the markings imitated by native makers suggested certain powers to be imbued in the blade as perceived from the emphasis of these on the imported European blades, it is interesting to consider the meanings of the markings as they diffuse cross culturally. What began as occult allegorical symbolism on the blades in Europe, evolved into associated quality marks by certain makers, then into folk magic and power imbuing talismanic symbolism in native perception.

This is the thought that brought me to wanting to pursue these markings more deeply, and I hope we can find more examples while we continue to consider those you and the others have shown.

All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 22nd January 2020, 11:10 AM

Some Belluno area marks, by member AndreaFeraro89:

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18th October 2017, 05:26 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 11:29 AM Posted by: katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Quote: Originally Posted by kronckew interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword. it did not want to come live with me tho........ Quote. ] Hi Kronckew You beat me to it .....I was surprised at the final price....have to agree that its a hunting hanger ...but think it was re-hilted ...the blade shape seems a little unusual for a hunting sword though, and I suspect that the blade has been shortened and the tip re-profiled. Regards David . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:37 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 12:47 PM Posted by: Andrew Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Thumbs up Jim, thanks for starting this thread (and bringing it to my attention--I owe you an email!). Fascinating stuff, gentlemen. I'm going to add this one to the "Classics" thread. Let's keep this going! Andrew . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:38 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:27 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 01:55 PM Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: does look very hangerish. most of the naval officers, while having a proper fancy sword for dress, would actually carry a hanger into battle as shipboard space tended to be a bit tight, they if i recall would sometimes have similar simple grips and guards.... in the u.s. navy they ultimately barred officers from carrying hangers as they were all different & too functional, not gentlemanly. of course, the officers at the sharp end took no notice and continued using them (and/or 'enlisted' cutlass) up till they stopped boarding enemy vessels....the war dept. eventually outlawed swords entirely & made officers turn them in for scrap, but wisdom prevailed and they were reinstated. i carried mine around for 5 years active duty & only got to wear it once in a parade, then once or twice in my active reserve days. the naval officers sword has degenerated into a pretty sliver of non-functional unsharpened polished & etched steel; i'd rather have a hanger. it'd be interesting to know if this was a 17c. passau sabre captured & converted to a hanger for use by an english naval or infantry officer. Last edited by kronckew : 13th November 2007 at 02:08 PM. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:40 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:28 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 11:05 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, I feel deeply frustrated I have deliberatily gone back to the Oporto Military Museum, in order to improve the pictures of this situation, but i couldn't manage better than the last time i was there. It is rather dificult to picture determined positions through the glass windows. This is labelled as an end XVI century German beheading sword, of unusual quality, where the double human half moons face each other, etched three times along the visible side of the blade ... probably also on the other side. I had sort of convinced the Directing Colonel to open the window for better pictures ( he owed me one ) but he went on a meeting and didn't show up untill i gave up. I hope this is usefull the way it is. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:41 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:28 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th November 2007, 06:53 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Gentlemen, Thank you so much for regenerating this thread! and Andrew thank you for the kind words and including the thread in the classics, which is great as I had hoped this would become a standing resource on this important data that we could all use as a reference. Kronckew, thank you for posting the marking from the hanger you note, and I'm with you in the regrets that you did not acquire it. The running wolf looks to be a 17th century mark and quite likely would have appeared on hanger blades. However, the mark may be from German swordsmiths who were emplaced in England at Hounslow in mid 17th century, as well as later in the century at Shotley Bridge. In both cases there were hangers produced, and as you have noted, became popular in maritime use. These short, heavy blade swords were key for action in the tight quarters aboard ships, and were often included among arms favored by pirates as well as the officers of commercial ships they preyed upon. I have seen the running wolf mark on these English hangers, though it appeared without makers marks and was likely used by some of the German swordsmiths independantly as a general quality symbol. Some of these seem to have been inlaid brass. As Katana has suggested, it would seem likely that a hanger might have been reworked or remounted during working life, especially among private weapons. Fernando, thank you for your excellent post and for the extra effort at showing the marks and the sword which really is interesting. I had often wondered about the crescent moon markings use on German blades, and this shows that they did occur paired, which I once thought appeared only on the Saharan blades. While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade? All best regards and appreciation, Jim , Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:42 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:29 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th November 2007, 10:54 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall While I can see the moons, were there other marks on the blade? Quote. No Jim, the only marks are the crescent (and decrescent ) moons. Three pairs of them, at least on the showing side. Just a little note. This sword is labelled as German by the Museum, but this is not necessarily a fact. I once showed a full set of pictures to Philip Tom and he sugested it could be Hungarian, quicker than German. This just in case someone finds its quoted origin passive of doubt. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:43 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:51 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 15th November 2007, 12:29 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Fernando, Thanks for clarifying, now that I look at it again you pointed that out in the picture you posted but I missed it. It is interesting to see these markings issued in pairs and spaced combination in this way. Again, this would suggest markings that are so placed in a type of motif rather than the talismanic combinations that appeared on many European sword blades, especially often seen on hunting hangers as described previously. It seems I recall a discussion involving 'executioners' swords or 'heading' swords and Philip noted the Hungarian examples. With his knowledge of Eastern European swords I am inclined to agree that this is probably as he suggests. The hanger type hilt also seems to correspond more with the East European suggestion, rather than German. Hungarian produced blades also used the esoteric symbols in variation much as seen on the Solingen blades. I have often wondered what was key to the Saharan swordsmiths choosing the paired crescent moons such as these to place on takouba blades, and in some instances on kaskara blades to the east. It seems that these paired marks (termed 'dukari' as claimed by Briggs) they occur consistantly and become increasingly stylized to near unrecognizable form, but positioned in the same manner. While the markings imitated by native makers suggested certain powers to be imbued in the blade as perceived from the emphasis of these on the imported European blades, it is interesting to consider the meanings of the markings as they diffuse cross culturally. What began as occult allegorical symbolism on the blades in Europe, evolved into associated quality marks by certain makers, then into folk magic and power imbuing talismanic symbolism in native perception. This is the thought that brought me to wanting to pursue these markings more deeply, and I hope we can find more examples while we continue to consider those you and the others have shown. All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:44 PM.

22nd January 2020, 11:10 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Belluno area marks ... Some Belluno area marks, by member AndreaFeraro89: . Attached Images