The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:22 PM

Old 7th November 2007, 11:35 AM

Posted by;
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Fernando, thank you for the translation, it is most interesting to hear how they marked their weapons, and the meaning of the marking. I have no doubt that the markings you see on European weapons and on weapons from other countries for a great part had a religious meaning, but it is very seldom you see the meaning explained.

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:22 PM

Old 7th November 2007, 10:11 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
I'd like to join Jens in thanking you for translating Mr. Daehnhardt's beautifully explained discussion on these often seen numbers that occur in variation on so many many blades. It has always amazed me that over the years so many swords that were clearly 17th and 18th century weapons, were described in catalogues as having blades dated 1441, 1414 etc. by writers who certainly should have known better.

The application of numbers associated with talismanic symbolism is of course well known from early times, as numerology has had quite ancient beginnings. It is interesting to note that from the 16th century, hunting swords were often inscribed with calendars of 'saints days' in sectioned circle separated with signs of the zodiac ("Hunting Weapons" H.L.Blackmore). Presumably such devices were employed to promote good hunting, and much the same concept was likely applied with numeric symbols on blades to offer protection and good fortune in dangerous circumstances.

In anthropology it is known that early man used crudely stylized symbolism in his artwork found in caves to promote good outcome in key events such as hunting. It seems amazing that this simplistic superstitious perception from mans darkest prehistoric age developed rudimentally into intricate occult systems still recognized in varying degree and form to this day. During the Dark Ages, though illiteracy and ignorance were prevalent, the crafts maintained these traditions and allegories, and they carried through the Renaissance despite the advent of knowledge and science.

I think one of the key elements in the esoterica behind these various markings and symbols found on weapons was alchemy. It was primarily this psuedo-science, heavily laced with theosophical allegory and arcane symbolism such as numerology and the Cabbala that led to the markings and motifs we are discussing, in my opinion.

In the bladesmiths craft, the secrets he employed in forging of the metal in his weapons were many, especially in the most important aspect, that of tempering the steel. All manner of bizarre concoctions were created in which the blade was quenched and presumably would imbue the steel with the virtues and properties that would be needed in a weapon of strength and protection. In the plethora of ingredients in such mixtures were many of the elements signified and included in allegorical symbolism, and some of these may be among marks or motifs on blades.

While these are simply thoughts I have had as I have continued researching this topic, they seem at least to form some ideas to continue reviewing such possibilities and more examples of the esoterica on blades.

With all best regards,
Jim

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:23 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 07:57 AM

Posted by:
kronckew

Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have feathers.

interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword.
it did not want to come live with me tho........

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:26 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 11:29 AM

Posted by:
katana
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword.
it did not want to come live with me tho........ Quote.

]

Hi Kronckew You beat me to it .....I was surprised at the final price....have to agree that its a hunting hanger ...but think it was re-hilted ...the blade shape seems a little unusual for a hunting sword though, and I suspect that the blade has been shortened and the tip re-profiled.

Regards David

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:27 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 12:47 PM

Posted by:
Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA

Thumbs up

Jim, thanks for starting this thread (and bringing it to my attention--I owe you an email!).

Fascinating stuff, gentlemen. I'm going to add this one to the "Classics" thread.

Let's keep this going!

Andrew
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:27 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 01:55 PM

Posted by:
kronckew

Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location:
CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK:

does look very hangerish.

most of the naval officers, while having a proper fancy sword for dress, would actually carry a hanger into battle as shipboard space tended to be a bit tight, they if i recall would sometimes have similar simple grips and guards....

in the u.s. navy they ultimately barred officers from carrying hangers as they were all different & too functional, not gentlemanly. of course, the officers at the sharp end took no notice and continued using them (and/or 'enlisted' cutlass) up till they stopped boarding enemy vessels....the war dept. eventually outlawed swords entirely & made officers turn them in for scrap, but wisdom prevailed and they were reinstated. i carried mine around for 5 years active duty & only got to wear it once in a parade, then once or twice in my active reserve days. the naval officers sword has degenerated into a pretty sliver of non-functional unsharpened polished & etched steel; i'd rather have a hanger.

it'd be interesting to know if this was a 17c. passau sabre captured & converted to a hanger for use by an english naval or infantry officer.
Last edited by kronckew : 13th November 2007 at 02:08 PM.
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:28 PM

Old 13th November 2007, 11:05 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I feel deeply frustrated
I have deliberatily gone back to the Oporto Military Museum, in order to improve the pictures of this situation, but i couldn't manage better than the last time i was there. It is rather dificult to picture determined positions through the glass windows.
This is labelled as an end XVI century German beheading sword, of unusual quality, where the double human half moons face each other, etched three times along the visible side of the blade ... probably also on the other side.
I had sort of convinced the Directing Colonel to open the window for better pictures ( he owed me one ) but he went on a meeting and didn't show up untill i gave up.
I hope this is usefull the way it is.
Fernando

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18th October 2017, 05:22 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 7th November 2007, 11:35 AM Posted by; Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Fernando, thank you for the translation, it is most interesting to hear how they marked their weapons, and the meaning of the marking. I have no doubt that the markings you see on European weapons and on weapons from other countries for a great part had a religious meaning, but it is very seldom you see the meaning explained. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:34 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:22 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 7th November 2007, 10:11 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Fernando, I'd like to join Jens in thanking you for translating Mr. Daehnhardt's beautifully explained discussion on these often seen numbers that occur in variation on so many many blades. It has always amazed me that over the years so many swords that were clearly 17th and 18th century weapons, were described in catalogues as having blades dated 1441, 1414 etc. by writers who certainly should have known better. The application of numbers associated with talismanic symbolism is of course well known from early times, as numerology has had quite ancient beginnings. It is interesting to note that from the 16th century, hunting swords were often inscribed with calendars of 'saints days' in sectioned circle separated with signs of the zodiac ("Hunting Weapons" H.L.Blackmore). Presumably such devices were employed to promote good hunting, and much the same concept was likely applied with numeric symbols on blades to offer protection and good fortune in dangerous circumstances. In anthropology it is known that early man used crudely stylized symbolism in his artwork found in caves to promote good outcome in key events such as hunting. It seems amazing that this simplistic superstitious perception from mans darkest prehistoric age developed rudimentally into intricate occult systems still recognized in varying degree and form to this day. During the Dark Ages, though illiteracy and ignorance were prevalent, the crafts maintained these traditions and allegories, and they carried through the Renaissance despite the advent of knowledge and science. I think one of the key elements in the esoterica behind these various markings and symbols found on weapons was alchemy. It was primarily this psuedo-science, heavily laced with theosophical allegory and arcane symbolism such as numerology and the Cabbala that led to the markings and motifs we are discussing, in my opinion. In the bladesmiths craft, the secrets he employed in forging of the metal in his weapons were many, especially in the most important aspect, that of tempering the steel. All manner of bizarre concoctions were created in which the blade was quenched and presumably would imbue the steel with the virtues and properties that would be needed in a weapon of strength and protection. In the plethora of ingredients in such mixtures were many of the elements signified and included in allegorical symbolism, and some of these may be among marks or motifs on blades. While these are simply thoughts I have had as I have continued researching this topic, they seem at least to form some ideas to continue reviewing such possibilities and more examples of the esoterica on blades. With all best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:35 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:23 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 07:57 AM Posted by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have feathers. interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword. it did not want to come live with me tho........ . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:36 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:26 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 11:29 AM Posted by: katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Quote: Originally Posted by kronckew interesting, i had noted this one on a sword for sale on ebay (now ended). looks like a hunting sword. it did not want to come live with me tho........ Quote. ] Hi Kronckew You beat me to it .....I was surprised at the final price....have to agree that its a hunting hanger ...but think it was re-hilted ...the blade shape seems a little unusual for a hunting sword though, and I suspect that the blade has been shortened and the tip re-profiled. Regards David . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:37 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:27 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 12:47 PM Posted by: Andrew Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Thumbs up Jim, thanks for starting this thread (and bringing it to my attention--I owe you an email!). Fascinating stuff, gentlemen. I'm going to add this one to the "Classics" thread. Let's keep this going! Andrew . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:38 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:28 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th November 2007, 11:05 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, I feel deeply frustrated I have deliberatily gone back to the Oporto Military Museum, in order to improve the pictures of this situation, but i couldn't manage better than the last time i was there. It is rather dificult to picture determined positions through the glass windows. This is labelled as an end XVI century German beheading sword, of unusual quality, where the double human half moons face each other, etched three times along the visible side of the blade ... probably also on the other side. I had sort of convinced the Directing Colonel to open the window for better pictures ( he owed me one ) but he went on a meeting and didn't show up untill i gave up. I hope this is usefull the way it is. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:41 PM.