The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:18 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 01:09 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

The images in Zygmunt Lenkiewicz and Dudley Gyngell's books are the same and as you know attributed to Peter Munich (I will post the images in Gyngell below). Not quite the cloud and sword as on Michael's beautiful blade. I think these images are often mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich but infact date to Solingern from the mid 18th to mid 19th century. The Munich images are much more detailed. The exact images seen on Michael's blade are seen often on British 1788 blades from the Runkel factory. They are less often but not atypically seen on British 1796's, and trade blades to Eastern Europe, Caucasus and Africa (oddly I haven't found any exported to America?). Similar images are copied in these areas, but appear more crude.
The arm with sword protruding from a cloud is thought to represent the sword of God or God's justice. It is seen in herarldry from Poland, Scandinavia, and Ireland to name a few. It has been mentioned that there at least was a Protestant connection. It is interesting to note that often in heraldry and in the blade image the sword is a "scimitar" not the more typically European saber as in Michaels coat of arms?

Hi Jens,
I think you are correct (again!), Just with the examples above you can see the images on the trade blade, local images on imported trade blades and local images on local blades. Possibly commercialism or possibly the images have significance that is independent of its possible trademark status. I will see if i can find any references to the mark on your blade.

All the Best.
Jeff

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:19 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 04:25 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff,
Thank you for posting the reference on the Peter Munich blade markings, and I think you are right in these appearing in kind, much later into the 18th and 19th century and the astral figures do appear often on British officers sabres as you have noted. I have always thought that these figures on these blades in these later times not only had to do with quality symbolism, but likely even more to do with Masonic lore. In those times officers were of course also well established gentry and often nobility, and were of course also often quite active in Freemasonry, where much of this symbolism remained well in place.

Very good point about the trade blades from Solingen, or for that matter Runkle who was situated in England, and their wide distribution. I think that in America these blades did get there in some degree of course via British presence. Best source for examples here would probably be Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution".

Interesting note that you bring up on the sword held by the arm in the cloud being a 'scimitar' as described in heraldry. It seems that these sabres and for that matter the 'Oriental' fashion deeply influenced many European forces in warfare in Eastern Europe against Turkish forces, and in many cases the 'exotic' imagery was adopted in degree. One interesting case is with a few of the Scottish mercenaries who adopted the curved sabre blades in their basket hilts, terming these hybrids 'turcael', if I recall.

With the mention of the Scottish blades, it brings to mind that it seems invariably that the basket hilt blades were German, and presumably mostly from Solingen. Needless to say, that brings us to the Andrea Ferrara myth!!

All the best,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:19 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 04:46 AM

Posred by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thanks for mentioning the Scottish blades as that reminded me about another observation. Often these 'trade marks' are doubled. ie. eyelashes & Ferrara marks, Or as in this Scottish basket hilt stars and moon with the Spanish motto etc.

Jeff
Attached Images

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:20 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 04:54 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Regarding the scimitar in the cloud image. I always wondered if it represented that the Eastern powers were seen as God's punishment, you know, not enough faith and all that...

More things to ponder.
Jeff

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:20 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 03:18 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde

Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Interesting to notice what Jim writes, and it is most likely true. In the start trade blades were no doubt of the same quality as the blades used by the soldier of the trading country, but along the way it is also likely that a lesser quality was exported, so in the end the locally made �trade� blade might have been of quite a higher quality than the ones imported.

The same happened to the Indian ingots in the early centuries, so in the end the Arabic merchants stationed controllers at the west coast of India, to check the ingots before they were exported.

A side remark � there were no doubt a lot of blades imported into India, which did not have any markings, but we will never know how big this import was.

Very good explained Jeff, and good instructive illustrations as well.

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:21 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 03:55 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent observations Jeff! and especially pleased to see that Scottish basket hilt blade, which is a beauty ! I remember that one! This further emphasizes that these Scottish blades were indeed German imports, as the 'Spanish Motto' blades have now been determined to have been produced in variation and number in Solingen. It seems that early Scottish blades bearing patriotic mottos had inscriptions that were noteably Germanic in spelling, such as 'for Schotland and no union'.

As you have noted the application of these astral markings as well as the motto seem to have been applied somewhat in disassociated manner as far as original or presumed symbolism, suggesting of course that such blades were made to appeal to certain markets or consumers without particular consideration or understanding of the markings. It would seem also that blades could have been decorated specifically at the request of the consumer. In such case, the coupling of markings indeed would have been found on varied blades intended commercially.

The suggestion that Solingen produced special order blades is also seen with the sword bearing arm out of the cloud that we are discussing. In one reference to this particular marking it appears along with a 'sacred heart' marking which is typically regarded as a Catholic associated symbol if I am clear, and in such context with presumed Protestant markings such as the arm in the cloud would again suggest production in a more commercial perspective such as the Solingen blades.
It would require a great deal of theological debate to discuss the possible symbolism of most of these allegorical markings, but the general application seems to support the talismanic concept.

It seems that early writers on arms such as DeCosson proposed that in many cases the application of what are perceived as names of makers may have been descriptive terms for types of swords, with of course Andrea Ferrara at the fore. Another familiar example is that of 'SAHAGUM'. While this of course is known as a place in Spain, and possibly a makers name, it occurs on blades in elusive variation, and often spelled differently. I have seen this term applied to allegedly Toledo produced blades and actually spelled differently on each side of the blade. Again,clearly Solingen production though the blade heralded 'EN TOLEDO' as well.

As you have well said.........lots more pondering!!!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:21 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 05:30 PM

Posted by;
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
This is a rough translation of the paragraphs concerning the so called magic numbers, referring to the sword i have mentioned before, contained in the book already quoted.
I hope this makes some sense and is usefull to the thread topic. If not, it's you who asked for it
I myself allways doubt the efectiveness of isoteric stuff ( is this how you call it? )

" It became easy to distinguish European examples from Colonials, as the quality of their fabrication and its artistic level were highly superior to those made in the Colonies. Not so easy, however,was to distinguish examples in the Colonies that were made by Portuguese smiths, engaged by the Overseas Arsenals, from simple copies manufactured in Native anvils.
Both versions had imported blades. The wide blades with the mark �Lobo de Passau ( a running wolf ), and with the magic numbers 1414 or 1441, are the oldest examples, which origin is attributed to Portuguese Colonial Arsenals and the realms of Dom Manuel ( 1495-1521 ) untill Dom Sebasti�o ( 1557-1578). It is worthy to mention that the numbers 1414 and 1441 were not the date of production ( under which very often they were classified ) but uniquely the application of a number considered �magic�. The study of numerology, a fashion of the period, attributed to figure �7�, as to its multiples and combinations, a Divine value. While the Arab cried Allah il Allah, the Christian would engrave the number 7 or, more often the 14 ( this being two times 7 ), or 1414 ( this being two times 7 plus another two times 7 ) or 1441 ( being 14 and the palidrome of another 14) on his blade, wishing to express this way his cry for Divine help in all four directions, as from the moment he unsheathed his sword. Number 1414 is also a reference to the Bible; Job, chapter 14, paragrapgh 14: Man dying, will he live again? Every days of my combat i would wait, untill my change arrived (in the Catholic version). Luther, much considered in Germany in the XVI century, has translated the Greek original, offering in simple language,the following interpretation to this Biblic quotation: When a man dyes, he will live again. So i will continue fighting until my moment comes."
All the best
Fernando
.

18th October 2017, 05:18 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th November 2007, 01:09 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Jim, The images in Zygmunt Lenkiewicz and Dudley Gyngell's books are the same and as you know attributed to Peter Munich (I will post the images in Gyngell below). Not quite the cloud and sword as on Michael's beautiful blade. I think these images are often mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich but infact date to Solingern from the mid 18th to mid 19th century. The Munich images are much more detailed. The exact images seen on Michael's blade are seen often on British 1788 blades from the Runkel factory. They are less often but not atypically seen on British 1796's, and trade blades to Eastern Europe, Caucasus and Africa (oddly I haven't found any exported to America?). Similar images are copied in these areas, but appear more crude. The arm with sword protruding from a cloud is thought to represent the sword of God or God's justice. It is seen in herarldry from Poland, Scandinavia, and Ireland to name a few. It has been mentioned that there at least was a Protestant connection. It is interesting to note that often in heraldry and in the blade image the sword is a "scimitar" not the more typically European saber as in Michaels coat of arms? Hi Jens, I think you are correct (again!), Just with the examples above you can see the images on the trade blade, local images on imported trade blades and local images on local blades. Possibly commercialism or possibly the images have significance that is independent of its possible trademark status. I will see if i can find any references to the mark on your blade. All the Best. Jeff . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:23 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:19 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th November 2007, 04:25 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Jeff, Thank you for posting the reference on the Peter Munich blade markings, and I think you are right in these appearing in kind, much later into the 18th and 19th century and the astral figures do appear often on British officers sabres as you have noted. I have always thought that these figures on these blades in these later times not only had to do with quality symbolism, but likely even more to do with Masonic lore. In those times officers were of course also well established gentry and often nobility, and were of course also often quite active in Freemasonry, where much of this symbolism remained well in place. Very good point about the trade blades from Solingen, or for that matter Runkle who was situated in England, and their wide distribution. I think that in America these blades did get there in some degree of course via British presence. Best source for examples here would probably be Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution". Interesting note that you bring up on the sword held by the arm in the cloud being a 'scimitar' as described in heraldry. It seems that these sabres and for that matter the 'Oriental' fashion deeply influenced many European forces in warfare in Eastern Europe against Turkish forces, and in many cases the 'exotic' imagery was adopted in degree. One interesting case is with a few of the Scottish mercenaries who adopted the curved sabre blades in their basket hilts, terming these hybrids 'turcael', if I recall. With the mention of the Scottish blades, it brings to mind that it seems invariably that the basket hilt blades were German, and presumably mostly from Solingen. Needless to say, that brings us to the Andrea Ferrara myth!! All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:24 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:19 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th November 2007, 04:46 AM Posred by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thanks for mentioning the Scottish blades as that reminded me about another observation. Often these 'trade marks' are doubled. ie. eyelashes & Ferrara marks, Or as in this Scottish basket hilt stars and moon with the Spanish motto etc. Jeff Attached Images . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:29 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:20 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th November 2007, 04:54 AM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Regarding the scimitar in the cloud image. I always wondered if it represented that the Eastern powers were seen as God's punishment, you know, not enough faith and all that... More things to ponder. Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:30 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:20 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th November 2007, 03:18 PM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Interesting to notice what Jim writes, and it is most likely true. In the start trade blades were no doubt of the same quality as the blades used by the soldier of the trading country, but along the way it is also likely that a lesser quality was exported, so in the end the locally made �trade� blade might have been of quite a higher quality than the ones imported. The same happened to the Indian ingots in the early centuries, so in the end the Arabic merchants stationed controllers at the west coast of India, to check the ingots before they were exported. A side remark � there were no doubt a lot of blades imported into India, which did not have any markings, but we will never know how big this import was. Very good explained Jeff, and good instructive illustrations as well. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:31 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:21 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 6th November 2007, 03:55 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Excellent observations Jeff! and especially pleased to see that Scottish basket hilt blade, which is a beauty ! I remember that one! This further emphasizes that these Scottish blades were indeed German imports, as the 'Spanish Motto' blades have now been determined to have been produced in variation and number in Solingen. It seems that early Scottish blades bearing patriotic mottos had inscriptions that were noteably Germanic in spelling, such as 'for Schotland and no union'. As you have noted the application of these astral markings as well as the motto seem to have been applied somewhat in disassociated manner as far as original or presumed symbolism, suggesting of course that such blades were made to appeal to certain markets or consumers without particular consideration or understanding of the markings. It would seem also that blades could have been decorated specifically at the request of the consumer. In such case, the coupling of markings indeed would have been found on varied blades intended commercially. The suggestion that Solingen produced special order blades is also seen with the sword bearing arm out of the cloud that we are discussing. In one reference to this particular marking it appears along with a 'sacred heart' marking which is typically regarded as a Catholic associated symbol if I am clear, and in such context with presumed Protestant markings such as the arm in the cloud would again suggest production in a more commercial perspective such as the Solingen blades. It would require a great deal of theological debate to discuss the possible symbolism of most of these allegorical markings, but the general application seems to support the talismanic concept. It seems that early writers on arms such as DeCosson proposed that in many cases the application of what are perceived as names of makers may have been descriptive terms for types of swords, with of course Andrea Ferrara at the fore. Another familiar example is that of 'SAHAGUM'. While this of course is known as a place in Spain, and possibly a makers name, it occurs on blades in elusive variation, and often spelled differently. I have seen this term applied to allegedly Toledo produced blades and actually spelled differently on each side of the blade. Again,clearly Solingen production though the blade heralded 'EN TOLEDO' as well. As you have well said.........lots more pondering!!!!! All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:31 PM.