The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:15 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 12:02 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748

Yay Jeff!!!
Ya always come in like the cavalry!!!!! Those are exactly the images I was looking for, thank you so much!
I agree on the ulfberht and ingeri (they always reminded me of Engleberdt Humperdinck ).....but excellent very early trademarks. I recall the articles from Park Lane Arms Fair journals as well as the material Lee Jones has compiled on these.

Thank you again Fernando for the Passau wolf and again adding the Portuguese associations.....I do indeed have that book but unfortunately not at hand right now.....wish it was believe me!
Please do add material on the '7' ......the numerological material involved in many of the markings is very pertinant. The number three of course comes up often with the religious associations. I know that on many trade blades, some of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas for example, three crosses often appear on the blades.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:16 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 01:13 AM

Posted by;
Michael Blalock

Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: dc
Posts: 253

Here is a cloud with a sword. One is from an English cavalry sword, the other, a Yemeni sword and the coat of arms is for the town of Valka, Latvia. A very small town in Latvia from where my wife's family fled during WWII. This part of Lativa was a German principality for most of the the middle ages.

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:16 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 02:33 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748

Beautiful examples Michael! and most intriguing history with the coat of arms shown. It seems I have seen similar arms in Polish heraldry, and that the arm coming from the cloud device was most likely adopted by Solingen makers in the 17th to 18th centuries as can be seen in the talismanic context.

I have seen this marking in books on this topic such as 1000 Makers Marks (Lenciewicz ?) and another whose title escapes me (Jeff I think you have these). I apologize for not having better recollection on these, I do not have access to books presently so must rely on what there is of my memory!!

It is interesting to see the religious allegory associated with these talismanic devices in motif, in this case the arm holding a sabre represents the arm of God and the sword extending from Heaven. We did have some discussion on the appearance of the Virgin Mary on Polish swords along with astral symbols not too long ago, and it seems that the arm in the cloud is shown illustrated in a Russian reference on this topic indicating the use from 17th to 18th century.

The English cavalry blade looks like an early 19th century sabre blade, and the Yemeni blade appears to be a broadsword as seen on kattara in Oman..both with Solingen blades,can you show the full examples?

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:17 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 05:49 A

Posted by:
Chris Evans

Member

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 524

Hi Folks,

Terrific and extremely informative thread. Keep up the good work all of you.

Cheers
Chris

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:18 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 11:39 AM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde

Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

I have only one blade, on a firangi, which could be a trade blade. As far as I can read it, it says XX WIDALDBELV XX, I don�t know what it means, but I have noticed that the text is not in the middle of the four �X�s so there may have been more than what can be seen to day. What can be seen is fairly deep, and this �worries� me a bit. The �X�s can be seen at both ends, but some of the letters are missing, without any trace of that they have been there, and this I find strange, it is btw the same on both sides of the blade. Could it be, that blades like this, with a sloppy marking, are not trade blades, although they are supposed to look so, but local made blades? We must not forget, that although several countries did what they could, to fill the market in other countries with trade blades, a lot of the so called trade blades we see to day have been locally made. How do we know which is a trade blade and which is a locally made one?

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:18 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 02:49 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jens,
Excellent point, very often it becomes hard to determine which are the trade blades and which are locally made. In many cases the locally made blades become quite good, and as trade blades were made sometimes rather indiscriminately, the very quality the markings presumed to declare was in fact not present. I think in many instances the manner in which certain markings were applied and the locations on the blade sometimes gave clues. For example, in the Sahara, the dual opposed crescent moons seen on the takouba blades are clearly an imitation of the larger crescent moon on the European talismanic blades. Applied doubly must have been thier idea of somehow strengthening or emphasizing the application.
In another case, the eyelash type markings appear on a blade in the Caucusus ( also on an Indian blade I have seen) rather than singly, applied in linear repitition, in the manner of motif. This multiplied use of what was originally a single trademark suggests the folk interpretation of increasing the quality or power imbued in the blade.

It seems that the X stamps typically enclosed either names, mottos or inscriptions on 17th century European blades, possibly some earlier. I am not certain of the purpose of these x markings but to enclose these inscriptions, and possibly since they often occur in multiple, numerological symbolism may be involved.

All the best,
Jim
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:18 PM

Old 6th November 2007, 01:09 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

The images in Zygmunt Lenkiewicz and Dudley Gyngell's books are the same and as you know attributed to Peter Munich (I will post the images in Gyngell below). Not quite the cloud and sword as on Michael's beautiful blade. I think these images are often mistakenly attributed to Peter Munich but infact date to Solingern from the mid 18th to mid 19th century. The Munich images are much more detailed. The exact images seen on Michael's blade are seen often on British 1788 blades from the Runkel factory. They are less often but not atypically seen on British 1796's, and trade blades to Eastern Europe, Caucasus and Africa (oddly I haven't found any exported to America?). Similar images are copied in these areas, but appear more crude.
The arm with sword protruding from a cloud is thought to represent the sword of God or God's justice. It is seen in herarldry from Poland, Scandinavia, and Ireland to name a few. It has been mentioned that there at least was a Protestant connection. It is interesting to note that often in heraldry and in the blade image the sword is a "scimitar" not the more typically European saber as in Michaels coat of arms?

Hi Jens,
I think you are correct (again!), Just with the examples above you can see the images on the trade blade, local images on imported trade blades and local images on local blades. Possibly commercialism or possibly the images have significance that is independent of its possible trademark status. I will see if i can find any references to the mark on your blade.

All the Best.
Jeff

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18th October 2017, 05:15 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th November 2007, 12:02 AM Posted by; Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 5,748 Yay Jeff!!! Ya always come in like the cavalry!!!!! Those are exactly the images I was looking for, thank you so much! I agree on the ulfberht and ingeri (they always reminded me of Engleberdt Humperdinck ).....but excellent very early trademarks. I recall the articles from Park Lane Arms Fair journals as well as the material Lee Jones has compiled on these. Thank you again Fernando for the Passau wolf and again adding the Portuguese associations.....I do indeed have that book but unfortunately not at hand right now.....wish it was believe me! Please do add material on the '7' ......the numerological material involved in many of the markings is very pertinant. The number three of course comes up often with the religious associations. I know that on many trade blades, some of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas for example, three crosses often appear on the blades. Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:05 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:16 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th November 2007, 01:13 AM Posted by; Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 253 Here is a cloud with a sword. One is from an English cavalry sword, the other, a Yemeni sword and the coat of arms is for the town of Valka, Latvia. A very small town in Latvia from where my wife's family fled during WWII. This part of Lativa was a German principality for most of the the middle ages. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:10 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:16 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th November 2007, 02:33 AM Posted by; Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 5,748 Beautiful examples Michael! and most intriguing history with the coat of arms shown. It seems I have seen similar arms in Polish heraldry, and that the arm coming from the cloud device was most likely adopted by Solingen makers in the 17th to 18th centuries as can be seen in the talismanic context. I have seen this marking in books on this topic such as 1000 Makers Marks (Lenciewicz ?) and another whose title escapes me (Jeff I think you have these). I apologize for not having better recollection on these, I do not have access to books presently so must rely on what there is of my memory!! It is interesting to see the religious allegory associated with these talismanic devices in motif, in this case the arm holding a sabre represents the arm of God and the sword extending from Heaven. We did have some discussion on the appearance of the Virgin Mary on Polish swords along with astral symbols not too long ago, and it seems that the arm in the cloud is shown illustrated in a Russian reference on this topic indicating the use from 17th to 18th century. The English cavalry blade looks like an early 19th century sabre blade, and the Yemeni blade appears to be a broadsword as seen on kattara in Oman..both with Solingen blades,can you show the full examples? Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:11 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:17 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th November 2007, 05:49 A Posted by: Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 524 Hi Folks, Terrific and extremely informative thread. Keep up the good work all of you. Cheers Chris . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:12 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:18 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th November 2007, 11:39 AM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe I have only one blade, on a firangi, which could be a trade blade. As far as I can read it, it says XX WIDALDBELV XX, I don�t know what it means, but I have noticed that the text is not in the middle of the four �X�s so there may have been more than what can be seen to day. What can be seen is fairly deep, and this �worries� me a bit. The �X�s can be seen at both ends, but some of the letters are missing, without any trace of that they have been there, and this I find strange, it is btw the same on both sides of the blade. Could it be, that blades like this, with a sloppy marking, are not trade blades, although they are supposed to look so, but local made blades? We must not forget, that although several countries did what they could, to fill the market in other countries with trade blades, a lot of the so called trade blades we see to day have been locally made. How do we know which is a trade blade and which is a locally made one? . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:21 PM.