The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:09 PM

Posted by:

Fernando

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
'The Spanish Motto', do not draw me without reason, nor sheath me without honor. This occurs in about mid 18th century, and while associated with Spanish blades of the period, it turns out these blades, typically Spanish dragoon blades c. 1769 were actually produced in Solingen.[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim
This Motto is much older than that.
In the collection of the Portuguese Viscount of Pindela, published in 1946, swords #35 and #39 bear this Motto. These sords are dated XVI century.
This is a very serious (rare) publication (which i luckily have), sponsored by the State. The collection was kept in the family's Mannor house, where it was catalogued, and was later sold to the State, due to the family's financial situation. It is now in exhibition in one of the National Palaces.
Hpe this is usefull.
Fernando

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:11 PM

Old 4th November 2007, 10:56 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748

Thanks so much Rich and Fernando for getting things rolling!!!
The Italian marks are great Rich.....I had a copy of the huge volume "Armi Bianchi Italiene" which I wish I had access to....these Italian marks are very important as the Italians were quite prominant traders that diffused immense numbers of blades.

Thank you for the input on that motto Fernando....I knew it was older than the popularly applied examples on those dragoon blades but did not know where or how early. The transliterated versions appeared also on French and Italian blades as well during the 18th century, and in the case of the Italian examples probably much earlier due to contact with the Portuguese I would imagine.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:12 PM

Old 4th November 2007, 11:02 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 5,219

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I am hoping we can focus for example on the 'running wolf' of Passau, which evolved into forms stamped in the blades of Styria, Solingen and eventually in the Hounslow blades and Shotley Bridge blades of German makers in England.

Hi again,
Jim

The running wolf ( Lobo de Passau ) is quoted to be engraved, together with the number 1441 ( one of the various combinations of magic number 7 ) in a XVI century Portuguese Colonial ( crab ) sword, depicted in page 64 of "Homens Espadas e Tomates, a book you also have. It appears that these trade blades were supplied at the time to Portugal and ( if i remember reading ) also Spain.
If needed, some evolution on the magic number seven can be posted.
Fernando

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:13 PM

Old 4th November 2007, 11:09 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 491

Hi Jim,

Here is Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons .

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:14 PM

Old 4th November 2007, 11:18 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 491

Here is Pg 223 of Oakeshott's Archaeology of Weapons !st edition.

.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:14 PM

Old 4th November 2007, 11:25 P

Posted by:
Jeff D

Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 491

How about going back to the ULFBERHT and INGERI swords, or the eastern European/ Caucasian FRINGA blades. Not to mention Assadollah!

You may have opened a can of worms with this thread

All the Best
Jeff

fernando · 18th October 2017, 05:15 PM

Old 5th November 2007, 12:02 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 5,748

Yay Jeff!!!
Ya always come in like the cavalry!!!!! Those are exactly the images I was looking for, thank you so much!
I agree on the ulfberht and ingeri (they always reminded me of Engleberdt Humperdinck ).....but excellent very early trademarks. I recall the articles from Park Lane Arms Fair journals as well as the material Lee Jones has compiled on these.

Thank you again Fernando for the Passau wolf and again adding the Portuguese associations.....I do indeed have that book but unfortunately not at hand right now.....wish it was believe me!
Please do add material on the '7' ......the numerological material involved in many of the markings is very pertinant. The number three of course comes up often with the religious associations. I know that on many trade blades, some of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas for example, three crosses often appear on the blades.

18th October 2017, 05:09 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Posted by: Fernando Originally Posted by Jim McDougall 'The Spanish Motto', do not draw me without reason, nor sheath me without honor. This occurs in about mid 18th century, and while associated with Spanish blades of the period, it turns out these blades, typically Spanish dragoon blades c. 1769 were actually produced in Solingen.[/QUOTE] Hi Jim This Motto is much older than that. In the collection of the Portuguese Viscount of Pindela, published in 1946, swords #35 and #39 bear this Motto. These sords are dated XVI century. This is a very serious (rare) publication (which i luckily have), sponsored by the State. The collection was kept in the family's Mannor house, where it was catalogued, and was later sold to the State, due to the family's financial situation. It is now in exhibition in one of the National Palaces. Hpe this is usefull. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 05:54 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:11 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th November 2007, 10:56 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 5,748 Thanks so much Rich and Fernando for getting things rolling!!! The Italian marks are great Rich.....I had a copy of the huge volume "Armi Bianchi Italiene" which I wish I had access to....these Italian marks are very important as the Italians were quite prominant traders that diffused immense numbers of blades. Thank you for the input on that motto Fernando....I knew it was older than the popularly applied examples on those dragoon blades but did not know where or how early. The transliterated versions appeared also on French and Italian blades as well during the 18th century, and in the case of the Italian examples probably much earlier due to contact with the Portuguese I would imagine. Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 05:58 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:13 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th November 2007, 11:09 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 491 Hi Jim, Here is Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons . . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:01 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:14 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th November 2007, 11:18 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 491 Here is Pg 223 of Oakeshott's Archaeology of Weapons !st edition. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:03 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:14 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th November 2007, 11:25 P Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 491 How about going back to the ULFBERHT and INGERI swords, or the eastern European/ Caucasian FRINGA blades. Not to mention Assadollah! You may have opened a can of worms with this thread All the Best Jeff Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:04 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:12 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 4th November 2007, 11:02 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 5,219 Originally Posted by Jim McDougall I am hoping we can focus for example on the 'running wolf' of Passau, which evolved into forms stamped in the blades of Styria, Solingen and eventually in the Hounslow blades and Shotley Bridge blades of German makers in England. Hi again, Jim The running wolf ( Lobo de Passau ) is quoted to be engraved, together with the number 1441 ( one of the various combinations of magic number 7 ) in a XVI century Portuguese Colonial ( crab ) sword, depicted in page 64 of "Homens Espadas e Tomates, a book you also have. It appears that these trade blades were supplied at the time to Portugal and ( if i remember reading ) also Spain. If needed, some evolution on the magic number seven can be posted. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 05:59 PM.

18th October 2017, 05:15 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th November 2007, 12:02 AM Posted by; Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 5,748 Yay Jeff!!! Ya always come in like the cavalry!!!!! Those are exactly the images I was looking for, thank you so much! I agree on the ulfberht and ingeri (they always reminded me of Engleberdt Humperdinck ).....but excellent very early trademarks. I recall the articles from Park Lane Arms Fair journals as well as the material Lee Jones has compiled on these. Thank you again Fernando for the Passau wolf and again adding the Portuguese associations.....I do indeed have that book but unfortunately not at hand right now.....wish it was believe me! Please do add material on the '7' ......the numerological material involved in many of the markings is very pertinant. The number three of course comes up often with the religious associations. I know that on many trade blades, some of the 'Zanzibar' nimchas for example, three crosses often appear on the blades. Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 06:05 PM.