Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th October 2017, 08:30 PM

Richardson. His Spa water apparently tasted pretty bad... perhaps because of the mineral content or even H2S Sulphurous water is supposed to be good for skin ailments etc...

1847. Jonathan Richardson's Spa in Shotley Bridge

The spring anciently called "Hally Well," now Shotley Spa, was at a distant period noted for its efficacy in the cure of scrofulous complaints ( Literally, relating to scrofula (tuberculosis (or TB like bacteria) of the lymph nodes, particularly of the neck). it fell, however, into disuse, and for a long time no benefit was derived from it, till a prevailing tradition lately induced Jonathan Richardson, Esq., to commence a search upon the spot where it was supposed to exist.
The search was successful. Appropriate buildings, a wellroom, baths, &c, were erected in the rustic style; and Mr. Richardson has opened carriage-drives and promenades upon his estate.
In the village, there are two paper-mills in operation; a market for corn is held weekly, and a fair for cattle every half year.

urbanspaceman · 7th October 2017, 11:54 AM

I found Wilhelm Bertram's birth records: 1670 - 1740; born in Remsheid as previously indicated. 70 years old when he died: not bad for someone who worked in such an awful environment.
The date of his shipwreck varies however between 1690 and 1693.
Regardless of that, he was just into his twenties, very young to be put in charge of a steel-making furnace.
I need to get more details e.g. where was the ship going? coming from? why was he on it? etc, etc.
Hmmm. I think Jenny Morrison may know.

urbanspaceman · 7th October 2017, 12:32 PM

My obsession with Bertram is because here was another German who mysteriously found his way to Shotley Bridge.
Was he on his way there anyway? And if so, why? Who sent for him? Was he with other industry workers on the ship?
The North Durham coast, where he was shipwrecked, is essentially the mouth of the Tyne, and aiming for the Tyne from out at sea in those days could quite easily have you blown slightly south, usually with tragic results.
In my opinion, his business was on Tyneside; or possibly Wearside if he was going to work for Sir Ambrose Crowley at his works in Sunderland.

urbanspaceman · 7th October 2017, 09:02 PM

I'm abandoning Bertram, as he could not possibly have been here before 1685 in any capacity that might attract the Hounslow and Solingen pilgrims.
Back to the drawing board and look for Vinting, who was definitely first generation local; and I still think his ancestors were involved in the lead mines at Ryton but we'll have to find out for sure somehow.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th October 2017, 12:34 AM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th October 2017, 12:40 AM

ah I was just looking at that...i picked up the scent at ~

https://www.google.com/search?q=Has+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

The letter goes on to say....

Hello all

Has anyone done any research into the VINTON family?

I am particularly interested in John VINTON who was a chainmaker.
Born in about 1802, he was probably the son of William VINTON of Winlaton
Mill.
However I have been unable to find a baptism for him.

William VINTON [son of Samuel] married Elizabeth FENWICK in July 1797 at
Newcastle All Saints
I believe they had the following children - baptism locations given.
Samuel 1798 Newcastle All Saints
Elizabeth 1800 Newcastle All Saints
John???? 1802???
possibly another child in 1804
Mary Ann 1806 Gateshead
Eleanor 1808 Newcastle All Saints
William 1811 Gateshead

My family history notes tell me that
"The VINTONs were one of the families who went to the Derwent
valley at quite an early time, to participate in the iron industry.
They may indeed have been one of the Shotley Bridge Sword-making
families. If not then they would have been associated with the early
iron foundry at Blackhall Mill or else the one at Derwent Cote. In any
case the original Vintons were of German extraction and many of them
ended up working for Crowleys at Winlaton, Winlaton Mill and Swalwell."

Any help finding John's baptism record in about 1802 - [or William's burial
before 1838] - would be appreciated

see also http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-07/0900255787

urbanspaceman · 8th October 2017, 11:16 AM

Hello Ibrahiim. Thank-you, very well done. Jim said you were an expert searcher, and he was right: you must have some secrets I am sure.
I have emailed the genealogy researcher (Heather) on both her email addresses, one of which bounced right back, giving her the entry from Richardson's book, in the slight hope she worked her way back further herself after all this time.
It's beginning to look like the Derwent Valley was known within the German steel/iron/mining industry. I won't venture any further speculations at this point.
Instead, I put Vinton into Google and up popped Vinton Metals/Batteries down in Kent who specialise is the safe salvage of lead/acid batteries.
I've sent them an email as well.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th October 2017, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hello Ibrahiim. Thank-you, very well done. Jim said you were an expert searcher, and he was right: you must have some secrets I am sure.
I have emailed the genealogy researcher (Heather) on both her email addresses, one of which bounced right back, giving her the entry from Richardson's book, in the slight hope she worked her way back further herself after all this time.
It's beginning to look like the Derwent Valley was known within the German steel/iron/mining industry. I won't venture any further speculations at this point.
Instead, I put Vinton into Google and up popped Vinton Metals/Batteries down in Kent who specialise is the safe salvage of lead/acid batteries.
I've sent them an email as well.

Good work Keith... Its just dogged hard work at this end and no secrets ....Luckily you are on the ground there... I think a lot of these names fuse together as a group of operators that essentially faded away dispersed to other centres like Birmingham and back to Europe...as the natural decline enveloped the region. I suspect the failure of the Colichemarde because of lack of machinery and the end of the Napolionic wars etc were ultimately responsible.

urbanspaceman · 8th October 2017, 09:29 PM

I suspect you may be right about the fusion of operators, but I don't believe the lack of a Colichemarde was ever a factor in their decline: I think they could have fabricated a grinding machine without difficulty; there has to be a reason they didn't.
There is another possibility could account for the choice of SB, and that is Thomas Carnforth the Newcastle cutler, who was certainly involved here and there, and to a greater or lesser degree. He was one of the people who testified on Mohll's behalf at his trial.
He wasn't one of the original four businessmen, but Johannes Dell was; along with a chap called John Sandford from Newcastle - who dropped out relatively quickly when the company began to deviate into fiscal areas; I haven't been able to find anything about him.
It may well be that the forge activity at Allensford (Vinting perhaps?) was known to Thomas Carnforth or John Sandford or both; and if Carnforth - who must have been buying Solingen blades - had trade connections with Johannes Dell (who became John Bell: one of the four businessmen starting the company) then that may have been all that was necessary to entice the two Hounslow men (Henkells and Hoppe) up here to team up with John Bell in 1685. Then Bell would return to Solingen to bring the main immigrants over when demand looked promising in 1687.
It may have been as simple as that. Let's face it: back in those days, German immigrants would almost certainly know about each other in a place as small as Newcastle (population in 1600s c.10,000) especially as the local cutler was dealing with them all.
On a separate note:
If they were turning out thousands of blades for the Crown/Government, then London cutlers would have finished them. If they were selling to the Jacobites, then Scotland's cutlers must have been involved. Who was in a position to finish thousands of blades? Trouble is, at best, SB may have stamped the tang, so who today knows where the blades came from?
Ever forwards, it's beginning to take shape I feel. Thanks again Ibrahiim.

7th October 2017, 11:54 AM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Bertram I found Wilhelm Bertram's birth records: 1670 - 1740; born in Remsheid as previously indicated. 70 years old when he died: not bad for someone who worked in such an awful environment. The date of his shipwreck varies however between 1690 and 1693. Regardless of that, he was just into his twenties, very young to be put in charge of a steel-making furnace. I need to get more details e.g. where was the ship going? coming from? why was he on it? etc, etc. Hmmm. I think Jenny Morrison may know.

7th October 2017, 12:32 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	ps My obsession with Bertram is because here was another German who mysteriously found his way to Shotley Bridge. Was he on his way there anyway? And if so, why? Who sent for him? Was he with other industry workers on the ship? The North Durham coast, where he was shipwrecked, is essentially the mouth of the Tyne, and aiming for the Tyne from out at sea in those days could quite easily have you blown slightly south, usually with tragic results. In my opinion, his business was on Tyneside; or possibly Wearside if he was going to work for Sir Ambrose Crowley at his works in Sunderland.

7th October 2017, 09:02 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Vinting I'm abandoning Bertram, as he could not possibly have been here before 1685 in any capacity that might attract the Hounslow and Solingen pilgrims. Back to the drawing board and look for Vinting, who was definitely first generation local; and I still think his ancestors were involved in the lead mines at Ryton but we'll have to find out for sure somehow.

8th October 2017, 12:34 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th October 2017 at 01:06 AM.

8th October 2017, 11:16 AM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Vinting/Vinton Hello Ibrahiim. Thank-you, very well done. Jim said you were an expert searcher, and he was right: you must have some secrets I am sure. I have emailed the genealogy researcher (Heather) on both her email addresses, one of which bounced right back, giving her the entry from Richardson's book, in the slight hope she worked her way back further herself after all this time. It's beginning to look like the Derwent Valley was known within the German steel/iron/mining industry. I won't venture any further speculations at this point. Instead, I put Vinton into Google and up popped Vinton Metals/Batteries down in Kent who specialise is the safe salvage of lead/acid batteries. I've sent them an email as well.

6th October 2017, 08:30 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Richardson. His Spa water apparently tasted pretty bad... perhaps because of the mineral content or even H2S Sulphurous water is supposed to be good for skin ailments etc... 1847. Jonathan Richardson's Spa in Shotley Bridge The spring anciently called "Hally Well," now Shotley Spa, was at a distant period noted for its efficacy in the cure of scrofulous complaints ( Literally, relating to scrofula (tuberculosis (or TB like bacteria) of the lymph nodes, particularly of the neck). it fell, however, into disuse, and for a long time no benefit was derived from it, till a prevailing tradition lately induced Jonathan Richardson, Esq., to commence a search upon the spot where it was supposed to exist. The search was successful. Appropriate buildings, a wellroom, baths, &c, were erected in the rustic style; and Mr. Richardson has opened carriage-drives and promenades upon his estate. In the village, there are two paper-mills in operation; a market for corn is held weekly, and a fair for cattle every half year.

8th October 2017, 12:40 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	ah I was just looking at that...i picked up the scent at ~ https://www.google.com/search?q=Has+...hrome&ie=UTF-8 The letter goes on to say.... Hello all Has anyone done any research into the VINTON family? I am particularly interested in John VINTON who was a chainmaker. Born in about 1802, he was probably the son of William VINTON of Winlaton Mill. However I have been unable to find a baptism for him. William VINTON [son of Samuel] married Elizabeth FENWICK in July 1797 at Newcastle All Saints I believe they had the following children - baptism locations given. Samuel 1798 Newcastle All Saints Elizabeth 1800 Newcastle All Saints John???? 1802??? possibly another child in 1804 Mary Ann 1806 Gateshead Eleanor 1808 Newcastle All Saints William 1811 Gateshead My family history notes tell me that "The VINTONs were one of the families who went to the Derwent valley at quite an early time, to participate in the iron industry. They may indeed have been one of the Shotley Bridge Sword-making families. If not then they would have been associated with the early iron foundry at Blackhall Mill or else the one at Derwent Cote. In any case the original Vintons were of German extraction and many of them ended up working for Crowleys at Winlaton, Winlaton Mill and Swalwell." Any help finding John's baptism record in about 1802 - [or William's burial before 1838] - would be appreciated see also http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-07/0900255787

8th October 2017, 09:29 PM	#9
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Cutler I suspect you may be right about the fusion of operators, but I don't believe the lack of a Colichemarde was ever a factor in their decline: I think they could have fabricated a grinding machine without difficulty; there has to be a reason they didn't. There is another possibility could account for the choice of SB, and that is Thomas Carnforth the Newcastle cutler, who was certainly involved here and there, and to a greater or lesser degree. He was one of the people who testified on Mohll's behalf at his trial. He wasn't one of the original four businessmen, but Johannes Dell was; along with a chap called John Sandford from Newcastle - who dropped out relatively quickly when the company began to deviate into fiscal areas; I haven't been able to find anything about him. It may well be that the forge activity at Allensford (Vinting perhaps?) was known to Thomas Carnforth or John Sandford or both; and if Carnforth - who must have been buying Solingen blades - had trade connections with Johannes Dell (who became John Bell: one of the four businessmen starting the company) then that may have been all that was necessary to entice the two Hounslow men (Henkells and Hoppe) up here to team up with John Bell in 1685. Then Bell would return to Solingen to bring the main immigrants over when demand looked promising in 1687. It may have been as simple as that. Let's face it: back in those days, German immigrants would almost certainly know about each other in a place as small as Newcastle (population in 1600s c.10,000) especially as the local cutler was dealing with them all. On a separate note: If they were turning out thousands of blades for the Crown/Government, then London cutlers would have finished them. If they were selling to the Jacobites, then Scotland's cutlers must have been involved. Who was in a position to finish thousands of blades? Trouble is, at best, SB may have stamped the tang, so who today knows where the blades came from? Ever forwards, it's beginning to take shape I feel. Thanks again Ibrahiim.