Nobility Moro Kris

[Battara]

I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded.

The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands.

As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

[Aslan Paladin]

Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

[CCUAL]

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

[Aslan Paladin]

Originally Posted by CCUAL

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

Yes, I think that both your kris swords are from Sulu. I am even more certain with the archaic kris.

[CCUAL]

i am still not convinced about the Maguindanaoan thing.

[Aslan Paladin]

It would be hard to state categorically that the kris is Maguindanao in origin as we only have the guard of the blade and the hilt to base our guess with (the blade suggesting Maguindanao and the hilt more likely Sulu). And we don't know if both parts were born together or married at a later date without inspection of the blade attachment to the hilt. The sword didn't come with a scabbard. Even Cato himself said that to successfully identify the origin of a kris a collector must look for clues in the guard, the form of the scabbard, and the configuration of the hilt in that order, and this is assuming the sword is all original in its parts with no marriages or replacement whatsoever. A proper provenance would be of big help but the seller only said it was found in an attic trunk. But still the opinion that the kris is Maguindanao in origin is IMHO reasonable using the guard configuration guideline set by Cato as has been mentioned before.

[CCUAL]

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

It would be hard to state categorically that the kris is Maguindanao in origin as we only have the guard of the blade and the hilt to base our guess with (the blade suggesting Maguindanao and the hilt more likely Sulu). And we don't know if both parts were born together or married at a later date without inspection of the blade attachment to the hilt. The sword didn't come with a scabbard. Even Cato himself said that to successfully identify the origin of a kris a collector must look for clues in the guard, the form of the scabbard, and the configuration of the hilt in that order, and this is assuming the sword is all original in its parts with no marriages or replacement whatsoever. A proper provenance would be of big help but the seller only said it was found in an attic trunk. But still the opinion that the kris is Maguindanao in origin is IMHO reasonable using the guard configuration guideline set by Cato as has been mentioned before.

I am also one of the lucky owner of the famous Moro Book by Robert Cato, it became my collection bible for over 15 years, and continuously my guideline book up to now, and some thoughts from friends.

What I should have done was to post my krisses blade alone first for comparison, as the scabbard was a giveaway. The argument "might" have shifted differently.

Well said. Thank you.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

It would be hard to state categorically that the kris is Maguindanao in origin as we only have the guard of the blade and the hilt to base our guess with (the blade suggesting Maguindanao and the hilt more likely Sulu). And we don't know if both parts were born together or married at a later date without inspection of the blade attachment to the hilt. The sword didn't come with a scabbard. Even Cato himself said that to successfully identify the origin of a kris a collector must look for clues in the guard, the form of the scabbard, and the configuration of the hilt in that order, and this is assuming the sword is all original in its parts with no marriages or replacement whatsoever. A proper provenance would be of big help but the seller only said it was found in an attic trunk. But still the opinion that the kris is Maguindanao in origin is IMHO reasonable using the guard configuration guideline set by Cato as has been mentioned before.

I mentioned that the blade is Maguindanao. This is based on the front and even the back of the ganga, though the back of the ganga is stylized not perfectly fitting any form. However, enough of the form exists to suggest to me Maguindanao influence at least, if not direct manufacture.

The chasing on the hilt bands are Maguindanao as well and the pommel form is found in both Maguindanao and Sulu regions. Datus of that era have been photographed having such a pommel from both regions.

With lots of trade and movement between the two regions, it is not unheard of to have cross cultural and artistic influences.

And regarding Cato - he is a good start and still valid in my opinion. However, it is also important to remember that even with all good research, updates and corrections are normal and necessary, even to the greatest of works.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by CCUAL

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

I would agree with Aslan that your krises are both Sulu in origin.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

This would be a ceremonial sword and not a working one, which would be simpler.

[mross]

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded.

The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands.

As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

Jose,
I like your wording much better than mine. I tend to be kinda blunt. I agree with your assessment. The pattern welding shows through even in the dirt, the luks just are not done well. As to Cato, it's a good starting point but that is as far as I will go.

[Battara]

Some Magindanao smiths started making these kind of luks after the turn of the 20th century. It seems that a more exaggerated form of these luks cam much later and copied by recent makers.

[CharlesS]

Here is the originally discussed kriss restored. The missing bone has been replaced, the blade cleaned and lightly etched, and the hilt fittings restored to their original luster.

The silver baca-baca have a lot of pinkish tint to them as does the top grip mount, and while it would be tempting to think they were swassa, I am convinced that they are a poor copper-silver alloy.

The grip fittings are not as well executed as they could be...not as crisp and precise. The blade is quite lovely etched. Based on the original pics I was expecting more pitting, but there was little or none.

The ganja is a classic Moro super tight fit but is separate from the blade.

I agree with the opinions that this is an early 20th-century piece....let's say before 1930.

[mross]

Cleaned up nice!

[Aslan Paladin]

Nice restoration on the pommel Charles. I'm glad that it was you who got it and brought it back to its old glory. It is exactly how I envisioned it would be. Got to love the nice blade lamination pattern and the exquisitely shaped greneng.

[Sajen]

Great restore job!