Nobility Moro Kris

mross · 26th September 2017, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexish

I think that this is a newer 20th century Moro kris, due to the sharp luks on the blade. The older Moro blades tend to have more gentle and sublime luks. Additionally, the ganjar appears to be more 2D in the newer krises.

I agree, it looks new, and I also think the inlays are bone. I would not put to much faith in Cato.

Ian · 26th September 2017, 05:04 PM

As noted already, this blade needs cleaning before we really know what it is. However, I don't think the blade is a 20th C. piece. On cleaning, I think we would find it has a separate gangya and a fairly active laminated pattern. If so, then it is probably a late 19th C. blade. The elephant trunk area suggests Maguindanao manufacture (if we believe Cato's classification).

The hilt, on the other hand, is more difficult to define. The style could be Maguindanao or Maranao, but the type of metal will determine whether it is a royalty piece. If there is some gold in the metal fittings (probably not but could be) then it will have been for a prominent owner (powerful datu or royalty). If it's brass, then it's a much less prestigious piece. The woven bands look like they could be silver but the whole thing is too dirty to be sure. Ivory versus bone inserts similarly reflect the importance of its owner (I also think they are likely bone). The triangular inserts were still being used into the 20th C. and our friend, Battara, can tell us more about them as he has restored several barung and kris with this style of decoration.

This is a nice kris but it needs some work before we could really discuss its merits.

Ian.

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 05:26 PM

I know it has been said that Cato may not be Gospel truth when it comes to Moro swords, he did state that "One impressive style, used by Sulu, Samal and Yakan datus, featured a large kamagong knob-type pommel with triangular bone or ivory inlays." For what its worth it is possible the hilt of this kris sword is Sulu in origin (if we go by Cato).

CCUAL · 26th September 2017, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

As noted already, this blade needs cleaning before we really know what it is. However, I don't think the blade is a 20th C. piece. On cleaning, I think we would find it has a separate gangya and a fairly active laminated pattern. If so, then it is probably a late 19th C. blade. The elephant trunk area suggests Maguindanao manufacture (if we believe Cato's classification).

The hilt, on the other hand, is more difficult to define. The style could be Maguindanao or Maranao, but the type of metal will determine whether it is a royalty piece. If there is some gold in the metal fittings (probably not but could be) then it will have been for a prominent owner (powerful datu or royalty). If it's brass, then it's a much less prestigious piece. The woven bands look like they could be silver but the whole thing is too dirty to be sure. Ivory versus bone inserts similarly reflect the importance of its owner (I also think they are likely bone). The triangular inserts were still being used into the 20th C. and our friend, Battara, can tell us more about them as he has restored several barung and kris with this style of decoration.

This is a nice kris but it needs some work before we could really discuss its merits.

Ian.

i picked this up on ebay sometime ago. nothing was changed or altered what so ever, the only thing i did was clean the blade. so this is maranao or maguindanao as well?

see link:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

i picked this up on ebay sometime ago. nothing was changed or altered what so ever, the only thing i did was clean the blade. so this is maranao or maguindanao as well?

see link:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore

Going by Cato I think your kris blade is of the Sulu style as the lower jaw of mouth cavity of the kembang kacang (borrowing indonesian kris terminology) or elephant's head and trunk design of the gangya is pointing or angled downward and the shape of the mouth of the cavity itself is elliptical.

The sword in the original post has a blade of the Maguindanao style (as stated by Ian) as the lower jaw is perpendicular to the side of the guard rather than angled downward. It is unlikely of the Maranao style as the portion beneath the lower jaw is concave and not protruding forward. Overall I would go out on a limb and say the entire kris itself is Maguindanao made, with the Sulu style hilt explained by the historical contact between the inhabitants of Maguindanao and Sulu via trade.

Battara · 26th September 2017, 11:42 PM

I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded.

The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands.

As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

Aslan Paladin · 27th September 2017, 12:11 AM

Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

CCUAL · 27th September 2017, 12:16 AM

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

Battara · 28th September 2017, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

This would be a ceremonial sword and not a working one, which would be simpler.

mross · 29th September 2017, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded.

The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands.

As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

Jose,
I like your wording much better than mine. I tend to be kinda blunt. I agree with your assessment. The pattern welding shows through even in the dirt, the luks just are not done well. As to Cato, it's a good starting point but that is as far as I will go.

Battara · 29th September 2017, 10:33 PM

Some Magindanao smiths started making these kind of luks after the turn of the 20th century. It seems that a more exaggerated form of these luks cam much later and copied by recent makers.

27th September 2017, 12:16 AM	#8
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread. Attached Images

26th September 2017, 05:04 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,512	As noted already, this blade needs cleaning before we really know what it is. However, I don't think the blade is a 20th C. piece. On cleaning, I think we would find it has a separate gangya and a fairly active laminated pattern. If so, then it is probably a late 19th C. blade. The elephant trunk area suggests Maguindanao manufacture (if we believe Cato's classification). The hilt, on the other hand, is more difficult to define. The style could be Maguindanao or Maranao, but the type of metal will determine whether it is a royalty piece. If there is some gold in the metal fittings (probably not but could be) then it will have been for a prominent owner (powerful datu or royalty). If it's brass, then it's a much less prestigious piece. The woven bands look like they could be silver but the whole thing is too dirty to be sure. Ivory versus bone inserts similarly reflect the importance of its owner (I also think they are likely bone). The triangular inserts were still being used into the 20th C. and our friend, Battara, can tell us more about them as he has restored several barung and kris with this style of decoration. This is a nice kris but it needs some work before we could really discuss its merits. Ian.

26th September 2017, 05:26 PM	#3
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	I know it has been said that Cato may not be Gospel truth when it comes to Moro swords, he did state that "One impressive style, used by Sulu, Samal and Yakan datus, featured a large kamagong knob-type pommel with triangular bone or ivory inlays." For what its worth it is possible the hilt of this kris sword is Sulu in origin (if we go by Cato).

26th September 2017, 11:42 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded. The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands. As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

27th September 2017, 12:11 AM	#7
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

29th September 2017, 10:33 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	Some Magindanao smiths started making these kind of luks after the turn of the 20th century. It seems that a more exaggerated form of these luks cam much later and copied by recent makers.