Pattern Welded Curved British(?) Dagger

mariusgmioc · 25th September 2017, 07:11 PM

While spectacular in appearance almost all pattern welded blades coming from India or Pakistan have extremely poor mechanical properties making them rather unsuitable for cutting anything but... butter. But this is based on my observations, so I would like to hear othe oppinions as well.

kronckew · 25th September 2017, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

While spectacular in appearance almost all pattern welded blades coming from India or Pakistan have extremely poor mechanical properties making them rather unsuitable for cutting anything but... butter. But this is based on my observations, so I would like to hear othe oppinions as well.

modern monosteels are better mechanically. pattern welded blades were obsolete militarily soon after. they were in their day, the best way to make blades from variable steels. modern paki/imdian versions were not the best examples in the beginning, as the old skills had been lost, many are now a lot better than a few years back and do not deserve opprobrium without evidence. still, monosteels are and will be better preforming. a lot depends on design, and what you intend do do with the pattern welded objects and how severely you treat them. as in many things you get what you pay for. bad execution in 'damascus' is just as bad as in mono steels. caveat emptor, but there are still some decent makers there. just be cautious.

A. G. Maisey · 25th September 2017, 08:30 PM

I do agree that the performance characteristics of some pattern welded steel are very inferior to those of good quality, properly forged and heat treated monosteel.

However, pattern welded steel that has been made by a competent smith, using good quality materials, and properly heat treated, can perform as well as modern monosteel in some applications, and in other applications can outperform modern monosteel.

For example, if we use 01 (oil hardening steel #1) and either good quality wrought iron or a modern low carbon steel, say less than 0.05% carbon, as the foundation materials, the resultant mechanical damascus/pattern welded product will display superior cutting characteristics to the cutting characteristics of 01 used by itself for the same type of blade. Additionally, the 01+low carbon mechanical damascus will resist breakage better, can be straightened without reheating, and will be easier to resharpen than 01 used by itself.

The characteristics of good quality mechanical damascus are most definitely not universally poor. Consider the past applications of mechanical damascus, for instance, gun barrels.

Good quality mechanical damascus can be a thing of beauty, as well as a thing of very superior performance characteristics. It all depends on the material used and the skill of the craftsman who made it.

mariusgmioc · 25th September 2017, 09:38 PM

I was referring strictly to the majority of pattern welded blades that come from India and Pakistan. And that is not necessarily because of the makers' poor skill, but because of the poor quality of the steels they use in the billet. Good steel doesn't come cheap and if they were to use good quality steels for their blades, they won't be able to keep the price that low.

I have seen superb quality pattern welded blades made in Japan, Sweden and many other countries. However, almost all pattern welded Indian /Pakistani blades on sale on eBay are crap.... from the mechanical point of view, but they look good and are dirt cheap. And buyer won't discover the mechanical properies of the blade until much later, after the buying process has been concluded.

PS: Some Japanese pattern welded chef's knives are considered to be among the best in the world... but they cost a fortune. And in the case of a chef's knife the pattern weld serves to more than simple decoy as it prevents the cleaved food to stick to the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2017, 12:39 PM

I did not understand that previous comments on mechanical damascus referred solely to material of Indian & Pakistani origin, I cannot comment specifically on this material because I have never subjected any of it to performance tests. However, in respect of modern mechanical damascus there are a few more things that I would like to comment on.

A lot of the more spectacular pattern welded blades that have been made in the modern era have been made purely as objects of art. They have not been heat treated. Complex welds can come apart if subjected to the stresses of heat treatment, and a lot of makers will not risk the investment of time that they already have in a piece of work to heat treat it. The buyers of these items are usually well educated in the applicable standards and are aware of what they are buying.

Very skillful pattern welding is currently coming out of China as well as India & Pakistan. I recently bought a replica Italian folding knife that has been made in China, the bench-work is excellent, the blade is skillfully pattern welded, but I'll put money on it that it is not heat treated. To me, the fact that this blade will very likely not hold a working edge is totally unimportant:- I do not expect it to. It is not a tool, it will never be used as a weapon, it is simply something nice to look at:- art.

It is possible to make extremely good mechanical damascus from material that does not cost an arm and a leg. I have only ever used two types of high carbon steel in mechanical damascus:- 01, and motor vehicle spring steel. 01 is not expensive, it is a very simple steel and ideally suited to old time forge methods; motor vehicle spring steel varies a lot in its analysis, and it usually takes a bit of experimentation to get the welds right, but once you understand the weld window, it is no more difficult to work with than anything else.

I think that the carbon content of most motor vehicle spring steels probably varies between about .06 and 1% carbon, so the edge holding ability also varies, thus if you decide to use spring steel in a piece of damascus it is best to make a blade and carry out performance tests on it first, before investing labour and fuel in a piece of mechanical damascus. The big cost in producing mechanical damascus is labour and fuel, and this can also vary depending where you are working. For example, if you are working in Asia and using teak charcoal, the cost of fuel can be extreme, if you are working in USA or some other western country and using gas, the cost of labour is the killer, along with capital outlay.The cost of the steel used is minor in both cases.

A smith working in the west usually needs a pretty heavy capital investment, not many use hand hammers, it is usually a big power hammer, or at least a mechanical hammer, something an like oliver for instance. The paraphernalia needed by a western smith costs a lot of money.

In Asia the capital investment is less, because labour is cheap, and labour can substitute for the need to outlay capital.

In respect of Japanese kitchen knives, in fact any Japanese bladed tool that has been properly made ( many are not) will really be a very, very good blade, whether mechanical damascus or unpatterned steel.

The very best knife I have ever used is Japanese. It is one of my kitchen knives, it gets used every day for all sorts of food preparation, blade about 4" long X 1mm. thick at its thickest point, san mai construction, I bought it +30 years ago in a Japanese supermarket in Sydney, it cost $12. This wonder-knife has been on a stone no more than 3 or 4 times in +30 years, the last time was more than 5 years ago. It gets touched up a couple of times a week on a Dick butchers steel, a few passes on the steel and it presents a shaving edge.

Any hand made tool depends on the maker's skill, the material, and the objectives.

I would most gently suggest that if some current era mechanical damascus has poor performance characteristics it is because the maker's objectives did not include the requirement for it to have high performance characteristics. If we are dealing with complex manipulated pattern welded blades, it is probable that some of those blades will fail under heat treatment, a blade that fails cannot be sold, and any smith with self respect will not sell a failed blade, but the cost of making that failed blade must be recouped, so if we are going to heat treat, then the price for the perfect blades that we sell must be sufficiently high to cover the cost of the failed blades. Thus, if one of our objectives is to keep price low, we do not risk heat treatment on blades intended purely as art works.

EDIT

Image of the best knife I have ever used

mariusgmioc · 26th September 2017, 02:12 PM

Very interesting explanation. Thank you Alan!

About your best knife... not very collectable...

The good part is that it seems to have a meaty blade that can take many more sharpenings.

25th September 2017, 09:38 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	I was referring strictly to the majority of pattern welded blades that come from India and Pakistan. And that is not necessarily because of the makers' poor skill, but because of the poor quality of the steels they use in the billet. Good steel doesn't come cheap and if they were to use good quality steels for their blades, they won't be able to keep the price that low. I have seen superb quality pattern welded blades made in Japan, Sweden and many other countries. However, almost all pattern welded Indian /Pakistani blades on sale on eBay are crap.... from the mechanical point of view, but they look good and are dirt cheap. And buyer won't discover the mechanical properies of the blade until much later, after the buying process has been concluded. PS: Some Japanese pattern welded chef's knives are considered to be among the best in the world... but they cost a fortune. And in the case of a chef's knife the pattern weld serves to more than simple decoy as it prevents the cleaved food to stick to the blade. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 26th September 2017 at 02:07 PM.

26th September 2017, 12:39 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I did not understand that previous comments on mechanical damascus referred solely to material of Indian & Pakistani origin, I cannot comment specifically on this material because I have never subjected any of it to performance tests. However, in respect of modern mechanical damascus there are a few more things that I would like to comment on. A lot of the more spectacular pattern welded blades that have been made in the modern era have been made purely as objects of art. They have not been heat treated. Complex welds can come apart if subjected to the stresses of heat treatment, and a lot of makers will not risk the investment of time that they already have in a piece of work to heat treat it. The buyers of these items are usually well educated in the applicable standards and are aware of what they are buying. Very skillful pattern welding is currently coming out of China as well as India & Pakistan. I recently bought a replica Italian folding knife that has been made in China, the bench-work is excellent, the blade is skillfully pattern welded, but I'll put money on it that it is not heat treated. To me, the fact that this blade will very likely not hold a working edge is totally unimportant:- I do not expect it to. It is not a tool, it will never be used as a weapon, it is simply something nice to look at:- art. It is possible to make extremely good mechanical damascus from material that does not cost an arm and a leg. I have only ever used two types of high carbon steel in mechanical damascus:- 01, and motor vehicle spring steel. 01 is not expensive, it is a very simple steel and ideally suited to old time forge methods; motor vehicle spring steel varies a lot in its analysis, and it usually takes a bit of experimentation to get the welds right, but once you understand the weld window, it is no more difficult to work with than anything else. I think that the carbon content of most motor vehicle spring steels probably varies between about .06 and 1% carbon, so the edge holding ability also varies, thus if you decide to use spring steel in a piece of damascus it is best to make a blade and carry out performance tests on it first, before investing labour and fuel in a piece of mechanical damascus. The big cost in producing mechanical damascus is labour and fuel, and this can also vary depending where you are working. For example, if you are working in Asia and using teak charcoal, the cost of fuel can be extreme, if you are working in USA or some other western country and using gas, the cost of labour is the killer, along with capital outlay.The cost of the steel used is minor in both cases. A smith working in the west usually needs a pretty heavy capital investment, not many use hand hammers, it is usually a big power hammer, or at least a mechanical hammer, something an like oliver for instance. The paraphernalia needed by a western smith costs a lot of money. In Asia the capital investment is less, because labour is cheap, and labour can substitute for the need to outlay capital. In respect of Japanese kitchen knives, in fact any Japanese bladed tool that has been properly made ( many are not) will really be a very, very good blade, whether mechanical damascus or unpatterned steel. The very best knife I have ever used is Japanese. It is one of my kitchen knives, it gets used every day for all sorts of food preparation, blade about 4" long X 1mm. thick at its thickest point, san mai construction, I bought it +30 years ago in a Japanese supermarket in Sydney, it cost $12. This wonder-knife has been on a stone no more than 3 or 4 times in +30 years, the last time was more than 5 years ago. It gets touched up a couple of times a week on a Dick butchers steel, a few passes on the steel and it presents a shaving edge. Any hand made tool depends on the maker's skill, the material, and the objectives. I would most gently suggest that if some current era mechanical damascus has poor performance characteristics it is because the maker's objectives did not include the requirement for it to have high performance characteristics. If we are dealing with complex manipulated pattern welded blades, it is probable that some of those blades will fail under heat treatment, a blade that fails cannot be sold, and any smith with self respect will not sell a failed blade, but the cost of making that failed blade must be recouped, so if we are going to heat treat, then the price for the perfect blades that we sell must be sufficiently high to cover the cost of the failed blades. Thus, if one of our objectives is to keep price low, we do not risk heat treatment on blades intended purely as art works. EDIT Image of the best knife I have ever used Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th September 2017 at 11:12 PM.

26th September 2017, 02:12 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Very interesting explanation. Thank you Alan! About your best knife... not very collectable... The good part is that it seems to have a meaty blade that can take many more sharpenings. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 27th September 2017 at 01:54 PM.

25th September 2017, 07:11 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	While spectacular in appearance almost all pattern welded blades coming from India or Pakistan have extremely poor mechanical properties making them rather unsuitable for cutting anything but... butter. But this is based on my observations, so I would like to hear othe oppinions as well.

25th September 2017, 08:30 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I do agree that the performance characteristics of some pattern welded steel are very inferior to those of good quality, properly forged and heat treated monosteel. However, pattern welded steel that has been made by a competent smith, using good quality materials, and properly heat treated, can perform as well as modern monosteel in some applications, and in other applications can outperform modern monosteel. For example, if we use 01 (oil hardening steel #1) and either good quality wrought iron or a modern low carbon steel, say less than 0.05% carbon, as the foundation materials, the resultant mechanical damascus/pattern welded product will display superior cutting characteristics to the cutting characteristics of 01 used by itself for the same type of blade. Additionally, the 01+low carbon mechanical damascus will resist breakage better, can be straightened without reheating, and will be easier to resharpen than 01 used by itself. The characteristics of good quality mechanical damascus are most definitely not universally poor. Consider the past applications of mechanical damascus, for instance, gun barrels. Good quality mechanical damascus can be a thing of beauty, as well as a thing of very superior performance characteristics. It all depends on the material used and the skill of the craftsman who made it.