Persian percussion gun repair.

ariel · 23rd September 2017, 10:43 PM

I know nothing about firearms and do not even search for them. I am into swords.
From what I see here, there might be different criteria for desireability between bladed and firearms.

This gun is not in usable condition at all , with firing mechanism broken, barrel not securely attached, gunstock unlikely to withstand repeat recoils etc, and still it is considered collectible and worthy of cosmetic repair.

A somewhat similar situation with a sword would be rusted through blade, broken handle and mangled guard. Few of us would invest money, time and effort to bring it up to a condition suitable only for wall hanging and devoid of any fighting potential. Such situation might be appropriate for a extremely rare excavated 1,000 - 2,000 years-old sword, but this is not a case with this gun.

Can you explain to me whether there is a difference of "collectability" criteria and tolerance margins between bladed and fire arms?

estcrh · 24th September 2017, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I know nothing about firearms and do not even search for them. I am into swords.
From what I see here, there might be different criteria for desireability between bladed and firearms.

This gun is not in usable condition at all , with firing mechanism broken, barrel not securely attached, gunstock unlikely to withstand repeat recoils etc, and still it is considered collectible and worthy of cosmetic repair.

A somewhat similar situation with a sword would be rusted through blade, broken handle and mangled guard. Few of us would invest money, time and effort to bring it up to a condition suitable only for wall hanging and devoid of any fighting potential. Such situation might be appropriate for a extremely rare excavated 1,000 - 2,000 years-old sword, but this is not a case with this gun.

Can you explain to me whether there is a difference of "collectability" criteria and tolerance margins between bladed and fire arms?

Ariel, people spend plenty of money restoring Japanese, Persian, Ottoman, Indian, Chinese swords etc but Philip might be able to inform us more about this.

As for the particular gun...Persian firearms in any condition are extremely rare. For me it is a thing of beauty, I am sure not everyone will agree.

ariel · 24th September 2017, 02:40 AM

Eric,
That was not my question. I do not doubt the rarity of this gun and do not question your decision to buy it.
I just wanted to learn and understand the criteria by which firearms are judged and why those are so different from bladed weapons. If you maintain that the conditions do not matter, this is a partial answer to my question.

estcrh · 24th September 2017, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Eric,
That was not my question. I do not doubt the rarity of this gun and do not question your decision to buy it.
I just wanted to learn and understand the criteria by which firearms are judged and why those are so different from bladed weapons. If you maintain that the conditions do not matter, this is a partial answer to my question.

There is no difference, if you like something enough and you have the money and a person who can do the work.....take Japanese swords for example, $100 an inch to polish, and thats just the start, there are mounts, fittings, storage mounts. People pay thousands for restorations. Sometimes it is due the the rarity or value of the sword, sometimes it is just something a person wants to do. Guns are no different.

ariel · 24th September 2017, 02:44 PM

I definitely agree: restorations can be expensive. But it is the goal of restoration that is important: what does the new owner try to end up with?

A patinated katana with battle scars and absent or mutilated koshirae subjected to extensive restoration will in large measure lose its historical aroma , but gain its former functionality of a full-fledged battle ready status. Minimum history, maximum functionality.

Excavated bladed weapons are just stabilized, with pitting and rust preserved and some parts ( handles mostly) minimalistically fashioned from translucent materiel to expose the tang ( see Khazar swords in the Furussia collection). Maximum history, minimum functionality.

With heavily damaged weapons these two are mutually exclusive.

What was your vision for the gun?

rickystl · 24th September 2017, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I definitely agree: restorations can be expensive. But it is the goal of restoration that is important: what does the new owner try to end up with?

A patinated katana with battle scars and absent or mutilated koshirae subjected to extensive restoration will in large measure lose its historical aroma , but gain its former functionality of a full-fledged battle ready status. Minimum history, maximum functionality.

Excavated bladed weapons are just stabilized, with pitting and rust preserved and some parts ( handles mostly) minimalistically fashioned from translucent materiel to expose the tang ( see Khazar swords in the Furussia collection). Maximum history, minimum functionality.

With heavily damaged weapons these two are mutually exclusive.

What was your vision for the gun?

Hi Ariel.

I tend to agree with Estcrh. While I am a novice with blades, I don't see much difference in the criteria of wheather or not to restore, and if so, to what degree being much different for guns than blades.
In the case of this gun, I would have done exactly what Estcrh did, and nothing further. The splice in the stock (which was originally there) was re-glued back together. No "alteration" or further restoration was done, or desired in this case. The historical/collector value of the gun far out weighing any potential for returning the gun to full shooting condition. History trumps functionality in this case.

I'll post two guns with oposite criteria here to give you a better idea.

Rick

rickystl · 24th September 2017, 05:54 PM

Here is an Afghan Jezail. There are many, many Jezail specimens available today. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part these guns do not have major collector value. No dought due to the many remaining specimens, and the fact there are not as many collectors for the Eastern guns like there are for the blades and armour.
And this one was no exception. It was in poor condition when I received it. It's only real value being the genuine English trade lock versus a locally made copy.
I bought this gun with the intent purpose to have it restored to full, safe shooting condition. It's historical value (if any) was of minor importance in this case. Functionality over historical value. A full restoration was done including a new steel, rifled barrel liner inside the original barrel. The gun now has a new life and is much fun to shoot. And that was the goal in this case. Before and after pics:

Rick

24th September 2017, 05:54 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Here is an Afghan Jezail. There are many, many Jezail specimens available today. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part these guns do not have major collector value. No dought due to the many remaining specimens, and the fact there are not as many collectors for the Eastern guns like there are for the blades and armour. And this one was no exception. It was in poor condition when I received it. It's only real value being the genuine English trade lock versus a locally made copy. I bought this gun with the intent purpose to have it restored to full, safe shooting condition. It's historical value (if any) was of minor importance in this case. Functionality over historical value. A full restoration was done including a new steel, rifled barrel liner inside the original barrel. The gun now has a new life and is much fun to shoot. And that was the goal in this case. Before and after pics: Rick Attached Images

23rd September 2017, 10:43 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know nothing about firearms and do not even search for them. I am into swords. From what I see here, there might be different criteria for desireability between bladed and firearms. This gun is not in usable condition at all , with firing mechanism broken, barrel not securely attached, gunstock unlikely to withstand repeat recoils etc, and still it is considered collectible and worthy of cosmetic repair. A somewhat similar situation with a sword would be rusted through blade, broken handle and mangled guard. Few of us would invest money, time and effort to bring it up to a condition suitable only for wall hanging and devoid of any fighting potential. Such situation might be appropriate for a extremely rare excavated 1,000 - 2,000 years-old sword, but this is not a case with this gun. Can you explain to me whether there is a difference of "collectability" criteria and tolerance margins between bladed and fire arms?

24th September 2017, 02:40 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Eric, That was not my question. I do not doubt the rarity of this gun and do not question your decision to buy it. I just wanted to learn and understand the criteria by which firearms are judged and why those are so different from bladed weapons. If you maintain that the conditions do not matter, this is a partial answer to my question.

24th September 2017, 02:44 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I definitely agree: restorations can be expensive. But it is the goal of restoration that is important: what does the new owner try to end up with? A patinated katana with battle scars and absent or mutilated koshirae subjected to extensive restoration will in large measure lose its historical aroma , but gain its former functionality of a full-fledged battle ready status. Minimum history, maximum functionality. Excavated bladed weapons are just stabilized, with pitting and rust preserved and some parts ( handles mostly) minimalistically fashioned from translucent materiel to expose the tang ( see Khazar swords in the Furussia collection). Maximum history, minimum functionality. With heavily damaged weapons these two are mutually exclusive. What was your vision for the gun?