The etymology and origins of sword and dagger nomenclature and terms

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2017, 07:50 PM

This is a fascinating topic, and interesting to look into the nomenclature of swords and how it may have developed. It is surprising how complacent we seem to have become on these terms used in describing these weapons without really realizing how they came to be.

We have had considerable focus and often dynamic discussions recently, and over the years on the 'name game' or the struggle in finding the proper term for various weapons which have conflicting terms used in the literature.
These have revealed a surprising aptitude and interest in linguistics and etymology here which has proven I think somewhat pertinent in our overall understanding of the weapon forms themselves.

While the etymology of these nomenclature terms may not be particularly key to understanding weapon forms specifically, it is of interest to many who study arms comprehensively.

It would be interesting to look into some of the other terms as well, such as pas d'ane and hilt itself.
The term broadsword did not always mean the double edged blade, but as late as early 20th century was use collectively for any heavy straight blade. The backsword term for single edged seems more a specifying term which arose sometime later in the 19th century.

I have often had difficulty differentiating between the terms fuller, channel and groove in the blades and which is proper descriptively. This has come to mind recently in our discussions on Shotley Bridge ( European forum) with the 'hollow' blade...which actually means ground out blade face where stock removal creates a 'fuller' of sorts to lighten and strengthen the blade.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th September 2017, 05:59 AM

Naturally the detail in this thread may meander from Ethnographic to European and broadening out the reader will perhaps notice that concepts thought basic are in fact not so simple as first envisaged

Pas D'ane is one such peculiar addition. www.dictionary.com/browse/pas-d-ane says regarding swords Quote" it comprises the two rings under the crossguard in which a finger may be inserted for safety and for added control of the blade. Literally it means; Asses Step."Unquote.

There may also be a single ring. See Below.

I cornered an interesting web page here https://oldswords.com/articles/Small...ibles-v1i1.pdf with examples and a good sketch with named parts.

Pick up on these Pas D'ane at websites like https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342766221609821775/

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2017, 11:01 AM

More detail on the Pas D'ane. Gold decorated hilt below.

France 18th Century Straight blade, of triangular section with hollow faces. Gilded writing "Ex Dono Regis" and engraved with the writing "LECOURT / Fourbisseur / Du Roy / Rue St. / Honoré / Pres Celle / Des Pauties / Au Grand / Monarque / A Paris". Iron hilt and olive-shaped pommel decorated en suite. Length 95, 8cm.

I note that some swords of the Hollow Blade/ Colichenade type continued the three blade edge all the way to the Guard as this example shows. Others had a thick rectangular Forte; as in the black and white shots below. Either way because the blade was thicker at the throat for about 8/10 inches it was stronger in the parry yet fast at the point, with a deadly tip. Control, balance and power were enhanced by the finger loops or Pas D'ane.

See https://www.pinterest.com/pin/264727284325593184/

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2017, 11:38 AM

Regarding Fullers.

Please see http://atkinson-swords.com/sword-mak...e-fullers.html for a good description of what a fuller is...and is not.

Taking the dictionary up...

A fuller is a rounded or beveled groove or slot in the flat side of a blade (e.g. a sword, knife, or bayonet) that are made using a blacksmithing tool of the same name (fuller).

These grooves are often called “blood grooves” or “blood gutters” as well as fullers, although their purpose has nothing to do with blood.

A fuller is often used to lighten the blade, much the way that the shape of an I-beam allows a given amount of strength to be achieved with less material. When combined with proper distal tapers, heat treatment and blade tempering, a fullered blade can be 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity.

Sword_parts-en.svg
source
This effect lessens as the blade is reduced in length. A blade is said to be “fullered” after introduction of the groove.

The term “fuller” is from the Old English fuliere, meaning “one who fulls (pleats) cloth.” It is derived from the Latin word fullo. The first recorded use of the term as a blacksmithing tool is from 1864, according to Webster’s Dictionary. The term used in historical Europe is largely unknown, and due to the constantly changing nature of language, the popular term also may have varied from generation to generation.

King Thrasamund of the Vandals was recorded in a letter to King Theodoric the Ostrogoth, giving thanks for a gift of swords, and refers to the fullers in the blades as simply grooves: “…their centers, hollowed out with beautiful grooves, seem to undulate with worm-like markings; for shadows of such variety you would think the metal was interwoven rather than shining with different colors.”

The French often use the term goutiere (gutter) or cannelure (channel). The ancient Viking term is unknown. As a verb, the old French term “gutter” meant “to cut small hollows,” as in the gutter of a crossbow. The term has nothing to do with blood!

The opposite of a Fuller is a Riser.. a stiff raised section on the blade to improve strength and rigidity.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2017, 01:14 PM

The Sword Knot.

I always wondered about sword knots...?

The sword knot or sword strap, sometimes called a tassel, is a lanyard—usually of leather but sometimes of woven gold or silver bullion, or more often metallic lace—looped around the hand to prevent the sword being lost if it is dropped. Although they have a practical function, sword knots often had a decorative design. For example, the British Army generally adopted a white leather strap with a large acorn knot made out of gold wire for infantry officers at the end of the 19th century; such acorn forms of tassels were said to be 'boxed', which was the way of securing the fringe of the tassel along its bottom line such that the strands could not separate and become entangled or lost. Many sword knots were also made of silk with a fine, ornamental alloy gold or silver metal wire woven into it in a specified pattern.

The art and history of tassels are known by its French name, passementerie, or Posamenten as it was called in German. The military output of the artisans called passementiers (ornamental braid, lace, cord, or trimmings makers) is evident in catalogs of various military uniform and regalia makers of centuries past. The broader art form of passementerie, with its divisions of Decor, Clergy and Nobility, Upholstery, Coaches and Livery, and Military, is covered in a few books on that subject, none of which are in English.

Indian swords had the tassel attached through an eyelet at the end of the pommel.

Chinese swords, both jian and dao, often have lanyards or tassels attached. As with Western sword knots, these serve both decorative and practical functions, and the manipulation of the tassel is a part of some jian performances. The way I read it with Jian it emphasizes the flow of the sword practise ..like water flowing or ~ When a tassel is handled correctly it is like the water dragon dancing around the mountain (sword).

Showing below~
Germany 19th century: Various colours and tassels of sword knots.

1. German cavalry officers' Stichdegen (dress sword) with sword knot, or
Troddel. When worn, the sword knot is wrapped around the sword guard, or sometimes looped though a slot in the guard.
2. Various different colours of German Sword tassels.
3. Tulvar showing the loop on the apex of the pommel through which a sword knot could be tied.
4. British Officers Infantry Sword and knot; 1845 to 1950.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th September 2017, 08:35 AM

The Pommel.

I was interested in where the word derived for Pommel? Viz;

A rounded knob on the end of the handle of a sword, dagger, or old-fashioned gun.

Simply put Pommel -- A counter-weight at the end of a sword's hilt, used to balance the sword. Also may be used as a striking implement.

Interesting however, is the Middle English description as ~ Origin
Middle English (denoting a finial at the top of a tower): from Old French pomel, from a diminutive of Latin pomum ‘fruit, apple’.

This would indicate the sword as having a little apple on top?

In the case of daggers the pommel gives a more secure grip and prevents the hand slipping off the weapon...and it can be said that a more substantially strengthened hilt architecture is possible with a pommel incorporated.

It can also be said that the large pommel structure allowed artists and designers to decorate with ornate complex designs which were particularly favoured at court as fashion dictated style...as below in the Elephant hilt.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th September 2017, 04:57 PM

Pistols with Pommels.

I saw a lot of nice examples at https://www.pinterest.pt/pin/42643527692282294/

22nd September 2017, 07:50 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is a fascinating topic, and interesting to look into the nomenclature of swords and how it may have developed. It is surprising how complacent we seem to have become on these terms used in describing these weapons without really realizing how they came to be. We have had considerable focus and often dynamic discussions recently, and over the years on the 'name game' or the struggle in finding the proper term for various weapons which have conflicting terms used in the literature. These have revealed a surprising aptitude and interest in linguistics and etymology here which has proven I think somewhat pertinent in our overall understanding of the weapon forms themselves. While the etymology of these nomenclature terms may not be particularly key to understanding weapon forms specifically, it is of interest to many who study arms comprehensively. It would be interesting to look into some of the other terms as well, such as pas d'ane and hilt itself. The term broadsword did not always mean the double edged blade, but as late as early 20th century was use collectively for any heavy straight blade. The backsword term for single edged seems more a specifying term which arose sometime later in the 19th century. I have often had difficulty differentiating between the terms fuller, channel and groove in the blades and which is proper descriptively. This has come to mind recently in our discussions on Shotley Bridge ( European forum) with the 'hollow' blade...which actually means ground out blade face where stock removal creates a 'fuller' of sorts to lighten and strengthen the blade. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd September 2017 at 06:12 PM.

24th September 2017, 05:59 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Pas D'ane. Naturally the detail in this thread may meander from Ethnographic to European and broadening out the reader will perhaps notice that concepts thought basic are in fact not so simple as first envisaged Pas D'ane is one such peculiar addition. www.dictionary.com/browse/pas-d-ane says regarding swords Quote" it comprises the two rings under the crossguard in which a finger may be inserted for safety and for added control of the blade. Literally it means; Asses Step."Unquote. There may also be a single ring. See Below. I cornered an interesting web page here https://oldswords.com/articles/Small...ibles-v1i1.pdf with examples and a good sketch with named parts. Pick up on these Pas D'ane at websites like https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342766221609821775/ Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th September 2017 at 08:46 AM.

27th September 2017, 11:01 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	More detail on the Pas D'ane. Gold decorated hilt below. France 18th Century Straight blade, of triangular section with hollow faces. Gilded writing "Ex Dono Regis" and engraved with the writing "LECOURT / Fourbisseur / Du Roy / Rue St. / Honoré / Pres Celle / Des Pauties / Au Grand / Monarque / A Paris". Iron hilt and olive-shaped pommel decorated en suite. Length 95, 8cm. I note that some swords of the Hollow Blade/ Colichenade type continued the three blade edge all the way to the Guard as this example shows. Others had a thick rectangular Forte; as in the black and white shots below. Either way because the blade was thicker at the throat for about 8/10 inches it was stronger in the parry yet fast at the point, with a deadly tip. Control, balance and power were enhanced by the finger loops or Pas D'ane. See https://www.pinterest.com/pin/264727284325593184/ Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th September 2017 at 11:31 AM.

27th September 2017, 11:38 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Regarding Fullers. Please see http://atkinson-swords.com/sword-mak...e-fullers.html for a good description of what a fuller is...and is not. Taking the dictionary up... A fuller is a rounded or beveled groove or slot in the flat side of a blade (e.g. a sword, knife, or bayonet) that are made using a blacksmithing tool of the same name (fuller). These grooves are often called “blood grooves” or “blood gutters” as well as fullers, although their purpose has nothing to do with blood. A fuller is often used to lighten the blade, much the way that the shape of an I-beam allows a given amount of strength to be achieved with less material. When combined with proper distal tapers, heat treatment and blade tempering, a fullered blade can be 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity. Sword_parts-en.svg source This effect lessens as the blade is reduced in length. A blade is said to be “fullered” after introduction of the groove. The term “fuller” is from the Old English fuliere, meaning “one who fulls (pleats) cloth.” It is derived from the Latin word fullo. The first recorded use of the term as a blacksmithing tool is from 1864, according to Webster’s Dictionary. The term used in historical Europe is largely unknown, and due to the constantly changing nature of language, the popular term also may have varied from generation to generation. King Thrasamund of the Vandals was recorded in a letter to King Theodoric the Ostrogoth, giving thanks for a gift of swords, and refers to the fullers in the blades as simply grooves: “…their centers, hollowed out with beautiful grooves, seem to undulate with worm-like markings; for shadows of such variety you would think the metal was interwoven rather than shining with different colors.” The French often use the term goutiere (gutter) or cannelure (channel). The ancient Viking term is unknown. As a verb, the old French term “gutter” meant “to cut small hollows,” as in the gutter of a crossbow. The term has nothing to do with blood! The opposite of a Fuller is a Riser.. a stiff raised section on the blade to improve strength and rigidity. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th September 2017 at 11:49 AM.

27th September 2017, 01:14 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Sword Knot. I always wondered about sword knots...? The sword knot or sword strap, sometimes called a tassel, is a lanyard—usually of leather but sometimes of woven gold or silver bullion, or more often metallic lace—looped around the hand to prevent the sword being lost if it is dropped. Although they have a practical function, sword knots often had a decorative design. For example, the British Army generally adopted a white leather strap with a large acorn knot made out of gold wire for infantry officers at the end of the 19th century; such acorn forms of tassels were said to be 'boxed', which was the way of securing the fringe of the tassel along its bottom line such that the strands could not separate and become entangled or lost. Many sword knots were also made of silk with a fine, ornamental alloy gold or silver metal wire woven into it in a specified pattern. The art and history of tassels are known by its French name, passementerie, or Posamenten as it was called in German. The military output of the artisans called passementiers (ornamental braid, lace, cord, or trimmings makers) is evident in catalogs of various military uniform and regalia makers of centuries past. The broader art form of passementerie, with its divisions of Decor, Clergy and Nobility, Upholstery, Coaches and Livery, and Military, is covered in a few books on that subject, none of which are in English. Indian swords had the tassel attached through an eyelet at the end of the pommel. Chinese swords, both jian and dao, often have lanyards or tassels attached. As with Western sword knots, these serve both decorative and practical functions, and the manipulation of the tassel is a part of some jian performances. The way I read it with Jian it emphasizes the flow of the sword practise ..like water flowing or ~ When a tassel is handled correctly it is like the water dragon dancing around the mountain (sword). Showing below~ Germany 19th century: Various colours and tassels of sword knots. 1. German cavalry officers' Stichdegen (dress sword) with sword knot, or Troddel. When worn, the sword knot is wrapped around the sword guard, or sometimes looped though a slot in the guard. 2. Various different colours of German Sword tassels. 3. Tulvar showing the loop on the apex of the pommel through which a sword knot could be tied. 4. British Officers Infantry Sword and knot; 1845 to 1950. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th September 2017 at 02:19 PM.

29th September 2017, 08:35 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Pommel. The Pommel. I was interested in where the word derived for Pommel? Viz; A rounded knob on the end of the handle of a sword, dagger, or old-fashioned gun. Simply put Pommel -- A counter-weight at the end of a sword's hilt, used to balance the sword. Also may be used as a striking implement. Interesting however, is the Middle English description as ~ Origin Middle English (denoting a finial at the top of a tower): from Old French pomel, from a diminutive of Latin pomum ‘fruit, apple’. This would indicate the sword as having a little apple on top? In the case of daggers the pommel gives a more secure grip and prevents the hand slipping off the weapon...and it can be said that a more substantially strengthened hilt architecture is possible with a pommel incorporated. It can also be said that the large pommel structure allowed artists and designers to decorate with ornate complex designs which were particularly favoured at court as fashion dictated style...as below in the Elephant hilt. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th September 2017 at 04:11 PM.

29th September 2017, 04:57 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Pistols with Pommels. I saw a lot of nice examples at https://www.pinterest.pt/pin/42643527692282294/ Attached Images