Interesting sword for comment

B.I · 15th March 2006, 09:58 PM

hi rick,
very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations.
the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images).
also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always).
i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier.
i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later.
as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

RSWORD · 16th July 2006, 01:55 AM

I have been continuing my research on this piece. One way of research is to poll colleagues to get their opinion so I had this with me back in March at Timonium. I received quite a wide variety of opinion as to where this piece originated and potential age. So, I decide the best way to further the research was to have one side of the blade polished to reveal any metallurgical details. The blade turns out to be wootz steel. The pattern is very faint, not very visible, but definitely there. So, this would rule out an European trade blade and this would rule out Africa as far as Kaskara or Takouba blade. The blade, while simple looking in pictures, is quite well forged, very well tempered and the steel is quite hard, not only on the edges but the body as well. It is extremely flexible and sharp. As Philip put it, it was made for business. Also, we were able to determine other things from the polish. The tang is not seperately forged on but integral with the blade. The fullers are forged into the blade and run right up to the tang. The tip was made this way. I have added two additional images, one is a close up of the tang area, and the other is a close up of the faint wootz pattern(probably mostly lost due to lack of heat control during forging) so that with this additional information we may collectively have new opinions about this piece. Thoughts?

Rivkin · 16th July 2006, 03:59 AM

The only such blade I have seen was an XIth century sword from Arabia. I think it is possibly a fantastic find.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 05:17 AM

Thanks for bringing this up again Rick, I always wanted to discuss this. May I ask where you got it? And if you asked its previous owner where he obtained it? I think you may have a VERY old piece here, no newer than 5 centuries. As others have pointed out arab, the closest arab style ive seen is those Syrian swords in Dr.Yucel's book, but this one's tip is quite round, which means a cutter, not a cut-and-thrust. With the wootz, this is probably either Yemeni or Syrian, pre-15th century, if indeed it were arab. However, that tiny tang does not suite arab hilts and designs at all. I would rule out the Kattara, as the tang is too short for Kattara hilt, which is usually quite long, can be classified as a hand-and-a-half. The tang seems to be the mystery of this blade.

Rivkin, I would love to see that piece. Have you got pics??

RSWORD · 16th July 2006, 05:25 PM

Thanks for the additional feedback. It is interesting to note that one of the colleagues I showed the piece seemed to recall some similar styled examples he had seen in a museum in Yemen. However, no literature or pictures from that museum and it may be a dead end lead. I acquired this piece from Czernys last year and they had it described as African but I felt it certainly was not African given it's overall dimensions and profile. I need to follow up with them to see if they have any provenance on the piece. I do agree that this sword has the possibility to be quite early. The short tang would have been suitable for a cast hilt which would have sit squarely on the shoulders of the blade and the tang adhered which is obvious as we can see the remnants of this pitch. One gamble would be to attempt to carbon date the pitch as it is an organic material but I run the risk of the blade being rehilted numerous times in it's life and the results would be inconclusive if anything but an early date was returned. Still, to further the research it may be worth doing.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 05:43 PM

While certainly you may get some organic pitch residue from the tang and carbon date it. This will only get you date, which may or may not resemble the age of the blade itself, as you said. The problem is, We have not seen or known of any mid-eastern swords which use this type of hilt construction. Arab broadswords used some kind of peening, with some rivets at times. Later arab sabres used a complex kind of hilt construction alongside rivets and wire wrapping. The only swords that I know of with used pitch adhesive for attachment from the mid-east are the Qajar era, persian "revival" swords, although the dimensions and "style" of your blade is totally different to those swords. My thought is that this sword originally had a proper tang, that was altered and reduced at some point of its lifetime to allow for a strange hilt construction. This blade seems to resemble arab swords from the early Islamic era, to late abbasid, yet the tip it different. Yet it still looks like mamluk 15th century sword blades.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 05:45 PM

Rick,

If you're really interested with this, have you considered using the Japanese way of dating blades according to tang corrosion. I dont know but it may work.

16th July 2006, 01:55 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I have been continuing my research on this piece. One way of research is to poll colleagues to get their opinion so I had this with me back in March at Timonium. I received quite a wide variety of opinion as to where this piece originated and potential age. So, I decide the best way to further the research was to have one side of the blade polished to reveal any metallurgical details. The blade turns out to be wootz steel. The pattern is very faint, not very visible, but definitely there. So, this would rule out an European trade blade and this would rule out Africa as far as Kaskara or Takouba blade. The blade, while simple looking in pictures, is quite well forged, very well tempered and the steel is quite hard, not only on the edges but the body as well. It is extremely flexible and sharp. As Philip put it, it was made for business. Also, we were able to determine other things from the polish. The tang is not seperately forged on but integral with the blade. The fullers are forged into the blade and run right up to the tang. The tip was made this way. I have added two additional images, one is a close up of the tang area, and the other is a close up of the faint wootz pattern(probably mostly lost due to lack of heat control during forging) so that with this additional information we may collectively have new opinions about this piece. Thoughts? Attached Images

15th March 2006, 09:58 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations. the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images). also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always). i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier. i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later. as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

16th July 2006, 03:59 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The only such blade I have seen was an XIth century sword from Arabia. I think it is possibly a fantastic find.

16th July 2006, 05:17 AM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Thanks for bringing this up again Rick, I always wanted to discuss this. May I ask where you got it? And if you asked its previous owner where he obtained it? I think you may have a VERY old piece here, no newer than 5 centuries. As others have pointed out arab, the closest arab style ive seen is those Syrian swords in Dr.Yucel's book, but this one's tip is quite round, which means a cutter, not a cut-and-thrust. With the wootz, this is probably either Yemeni or Syrian, pre-15th century, if indeed it were arab. However, that tiny tang does not suite arab hilts and designs at all. I would rule out the Kattara, as the tang is too short for Kattara hilt, which is usually quite long, can be classified as a hand-and-a-half. The tang seems to be the mystery of this blade. Rivkin, I would love to see that piece. Have you got pics??

16th July 2006, 05:25 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Thanks for the additional feedback. It is interesting to note that one of the colleagues I showed the piece seemed to recall some similar styled examples he had seen in a museum in Yemen. However, no literature or pictures from that museum and it may be a dead end lead. I acquired this piece from Czernys last year and they had it described as African but I felt it certainly was not African given it's overall dimensions and profile. I need to follow up with them to see if they have any provenance on the piece. I do agree that this sword has the possibility to be quite early. The short tang would have been suitable for a cast hilt which would have sit squarely on the shoulders of the blade and the tang adhered which is obvious as we can see the remnants of this pitch. One gamble would be to attempt to carbon date the pitch as it is an organic material but I run the risk of the blade being rehilted numerous times in it's life and the results would be inconclusive if anything but an early date was returned. Still, to further the research it may be worth doing.

16th July 2006, 05:43 PM	#6
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	While certainly you may get some organic pitch residue from the tang and carbon date it. This will only get you date, which may or may not resemble the age of the blade itself, as you said. The problem is, We have not seen or known of any mid-eastern swords which use this type of hilt construction. Arab broadswords used some kind of peening, with some rivets at times. Later arab sabres used a complex kind of hilt construction alongside rivets and wire wrapping. The only swords that I know of with used pitch adhesive for attachment from the mid-east are the Qajar era, persian "revival" swords, although the dimensions and "style" of your blade is totally different to those swords. My thought is that this sword originally had a proper tang, that was altered and reduced at some point of its lifetime to allow for a strange hilt construction. This blade seems to resemble arab swords from the early Islamic era, to late abbasid, yet the tip it different. Yet it still looks like mamluk 15th century sword blades.

16th July 2006, 05:45 PM	#7
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Rick, If you're really interested with this, have you considered using the Japanese way of dating blades according to tang corrosion. I dont know but it may work.