The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Fernando, Thank you very much for your reply. I am so pleased you agree that the offending weapon description has no place in this thread nor in others ... and that since it pollutes the story in several threads with its spurious reference to weapons of West Africa; Benin and Dahomey regions in particular having certainly travelled to the Indian Ocean in Portuguese Battleships...etc etc ..therefor they must be influenced by Kastane (Sinhalese Armoury weapons) that those pages too should be purged of such material. It is nonsense.

I repeat your advice ...Quote"For as much as authors claim their knowledge and state their opinions as if they were facts, lack of substantial evidence often forms their strong adversary".Unquote.

On the subject of raining in the wet... What new evidence have you supported in this thread ? We have here and in the sister thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...000#post220000 massive support of clear inter regional influence from mainly South India but also inter religious mirroring of architecture concerning the Kastane linked to Budhist and Hindu designs which are not affected by Portuguese constructs nor does it appear to have any link at all with the Nimcha... and by the way the other spurious sword from your author, a Nimcha Sword from Zanzibar, I recall is also wrongly written up with the detail of a Moroccan Nimcha... Should we perhaps not be more careful with our referencing material?

I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

You are absolutely right, Ibrahiim,
I should have restrained my reflex to reply to your post.
But, as the late Rodríguez de la Fuente used to say; man is the only animal that stumbles twice on the same rock .

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?

I would be careful identifying the equilateral cross as being solely "Voodoo geometry" Ibrahiim. (Btw, the more proper term would be Vodun or Vodoun. While Certain diaspora sects in Louisiana use the term, Voodoo carries far to much bad Hollywood movie baggage with it).This symbol is both ancient and prolific and can be found amongst cultures spread all across the globe with various meanings. In many cases it represents a solar symbology, the four directions, the four elements, etc. Depends on the culture. You are correct that in West African cultures such as the Ewe and Fon it represents the crossroads, the meeting of the spirit world and the material. However, the equilateral cross also has a place in Christian iconography as well in many variations. So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

I would be careful identifying the equilateral cross as being solely "Voodoo geometry" Ibrahiim. (Btw, the more proper term would be Vodun or Vodoun. While Certain diaspora sects in Louisiana use the term, Voodoo carries far to much bad Hollywood movie baggage with it).This symbol is both ancient and prolific and can be found amongst cultures spread all across the globe with various meanings. In many cases it represents a solar symbology, the four directions, the four elements, etc. Depends on the culture. You are correct that in West African cultures such as the Ewe and Fon it represents the crossroads, the meeting of the spirit world and the material. However, the equilateral cross also has a place in Christian iconography as well in many variations. So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

Salaams and thank you David for your input which I agree with entirely with the following caveat; The tribal leaders in West Africa very quickly adopted the Crucifix and would appear to have inserted the Cross into their broad leaf shaped swords probably from the Portuguese and as I have just outlined in

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002 at #20

I believe this "Religious" geometry would have suggested to them a special extra degree of power over their people ... Your Vodun and Vodoun are correct terminology although I had researched the New Orleans and Haiti cultural aspects and Voodoo seemed linked which I think it is in part and shown by the diagrams at the other thread and came with the slaves from West Africa. Your indication about the cross roads symbolic meaning is particularly welcome and underscores what I have already written.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

...So while it is most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation, it is not so clear as to the meaning and purpose of such a symbol when it appears on weapons outside West African spheres.

Several Congolese swords are found with such crosses in their quillon discs, David. I hardly see these perforations as symbols originated (different than adopted) by Kongo Africans. Amazingly a scholar (Wanynn 1961,65) even names them as Greek crosses.
The order of Christus, for one, was also present in the Kongo kingdom and had swords in their possession as a sign of status (Schellings 1949, 12).
The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture.
Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67).
Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude.
The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made.
The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending.


.

[fernando]

Kubur, your PM box is full.

[David]

Originally Posted by fernando

Several Congolese swords are found with such crosses in their quillon discs, David. I hardly see these perforations as symbols originated (different than adopted) by Kongo Africans. Amazingly a scholar (Wanynn 1961,65) even names them as Greek crosses.
The order of Christus, for one, was also present in the Kongo kingdom and had swords in their possession as a sign of status (Schellings 1949, 12).
The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture.
Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67).
Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude.
The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made.
The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending.

Fernando, there is certainly no doubt that Christianity made inroads on the African continent early on in the 15th century and that various African cultures did indeed accept it and work Christian iconography into their cultural artifacts. However, i was addressing Ibrahiim's assertions in my post, specifically references to "Voodoo geometry" and his link in his post #159 to images of the Haitian Vodoun vévé for Papa Legba, the Lwa of the crossroads. Vodun is more specific to the Dahomey Kingdom than the Konga Kingdom. While i remarked that the equilateral cross has many pre-Christian occurrences all over the world and is intact a symbol of the the crossroads in parts of African as well as the diaspora, vévé themselves, the practice of drawing these Lwa symbols on the ground with flour for ritual purpose is one that developed in Haiti and other diaspora countries, not Mother Africa herself, so the Legba crossroads symbol Ibrahiim posted has little bearing on this topic. However, in Africa this equilateral cross symbol was in use in pre-Christian days. Once Christianized i am sure that it took on a different meaning an purpose, but wherever one religion supplants another there is often some hold over to previous belief systems and meanings can be a bit fuzzy to interpret. There are also numerous syncretic sects throughout Africa that combine Christianity with traditional African religions. But when i wrote it is "most logical to assume that the equilateral cross when found on a solely African weapon most probably does not have a Christian affiliation" i was referring to weapons from cultures that were purely African and had not fully converted to Christian ways. Either way i believe it is still difficult to tell the exact intent and purpose of the equilateral cross when it appears on these swords.

[fernando]

Good enough, David .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have to say ...or should I say point out? That both these complex answers on the subject of Crosses are on completely the wrong thread. My advice would be that the correct thread is ~

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002

~ where Crosses are being aired relevant to West African swords.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An interesting gift from Russia to Sri Lanka was made in the form of a previously lost sword now returned....and gifted to the National Museum.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have to say ...or should I say point out? That both these complex answers on the subject of Crosses are on completely the wrong thread. My advice would be that the correct thread is ~

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002

~ where Crosses are being aired relevant to West African swords.

LOL! Well, I have to say...it was you Ibrahiim, who raised the topic when you revived this old thread in your post #159. You placed the link to that thread and wrote:
I further cast doubt upon the claim that this is a Christian cross. Again the reference above refers. It is more likely to be Voodoo inspired.
You further press this question in post #161:
I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?
So if you truly think our responses are on the wrong thread you might want to ask yourself why you continue to encourage the discussion here.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

LOL! Well, I have to say...it was you Ibrahiim, who raised the topic when you revived this old thread in your post #159. You placed the link to that thread and wrote:
I further cast doubt upon the claim that this is a Christian cross. Again the reference above refers. It is more likely to be Voodoo inspired.
You further press this question in post #161:
I would be pleased to see a proof regarding the Christian Cross in the blade as so far as is understood this is a Voodoo geometry although any light you can throw on it other than the author writing that this is a Christian Cross related to those on Pharaohic Tombs?
So if you truly think our responses are on the wrong thread you might want to ask yourself why you continue to encourage the discussion here.

David Thank you for posting your detailed work on the cross situation albeit on the wrong thread...which I hope can be remedied smartly.

Although it is plain to see that I was originally writing in context not out of it. In fact it was quite relevant as I was looking back with the thought of damage control in mind and to correct anything I felt needed attention... The West African Machette is clearly in that category since in view of post at #80. placed on this thread. it is a clearly out of sync. picture with spurious (at best) detail about West African/Portuguese Sinhalese influence unless you agree with the proposition that is?

But it is good that at least you now recognize that the Cross discussion belongs on another thread as it is relevant to West African detail...On the other thread in fact you will see clearly that I concur with the idea of the Portuguese influence and place my own research behind that premise... although I doubt much of the constructed work by others that the influence is Pharoaic or because it came down the trans Saharan highway..

SEE CORRECT thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23002.

I do not encourage discussion here on this subject ...it is the wrong thread unless you are deliberate in placing it / chasing it here...? The threads are a mess because of this misplacement. Look at it from a logical viewpoint of library content...?

Whilst there is excellent detail on the said posts they are woefully misplaced. Can a consensus not be arrived at to sort this raveled mix up out?