Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 01:46 AM

And it is still called meteorite though it is already technically engineered on earth ? I thought meteorite is extra terrestrial metal. Darn.

Traditional methods usually have empirical approaches and tends to stray the constructiev progress to superstitions. Modern methods usually have technical scientific engineering approaches and tends to deny the real magic of the old world with logic.

This thread will not be complete if the metal tempering area has not been covered. Like I was told that keris is tempered by dipping the whole blade into water without any temperature and timing standard but only by the smith's feeling. And still it could produce a variation blade texture like the pamor materials go out of the surface or dive into the blade, making a beautiful pamor of Ron Genduro or Bulu Ayam. Is that the same meteorite, just temper play (e.g partial tempering) or because different hardness of different metal which harder metal squeezes softer one during tempering?

Is it scientificly possible that combined mixture of metals in pamor could naturally produce electro-voltaic energy like a electro-static capacitor?

Hmm., I don't see any use of the answers for myself

but it could be useful to others who might need it to improve keris smith in Indonesia. Thank you in advance for your gentle answers, you know, I do try to ask the question gently.

~Hing ngarson sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani

nechesh · 14th March 2006, 01:58 AM

Gee Purwacarita, you asked the question so gently that i'm not even sure exactly what it is you are asking.....or trying to say.

And would you mind translating that last line for this ignorant American?

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 06:12 AM

Hi nechesh. It's good to read your gentle sarcasm once again. Last time you charged this innocent

young man with accusation of disrespect.

I recall that I've described the meaning in my last post several months ago, and now you ask me to describe it once again while you ignore it ? Please,.... give me a break!

Many others can do the job much better than me.

It is a philosophycal principle of idealism of life by Ki Hajar Dewantara. He is reknown as the father of education of Indonesia. The meaning of the principle is that people have three positions, in front, in the middle, and in the rear. Where people in front position should give good examples, while people in the middle shall share spirit with their surrounding neighbor to constructiveness. At last where people in the rear position must stimulate others with contructive motivation. It is felt that the difference between these three position is that people in front is somehow entitled leaders, in the middle - the workers, in the rear - wives.

Though in the beginning this saying is the principle mostly refers to teachers in education field, nowadays only a few is willing to explore to its deeper meaning. It is an Indonesia national saying rarely spoken again, I hate it when you're right, but more or less it's because of capitalism like you quoted earlier.

We have a national symbol too which has a saying in the ribbon banner, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. It means Diversity in Unity. So easy to say but very hard to implement specially in new communities where everyone else is different. I guess that what causes the 2 blasts and Jagadnata bombing, some people cannot accept that we are different from them.

~Hing ngarso sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut Wuri Handayani.

Gitu Loh!

Boedhi Adhitya · 14th March 2006, 06:19 AM

Pusaka, I believe joglosemar wrongfully quote Empu Djeno. If we use meteorite as a pamor material, we needs roughly twice times than the pure nickel amount. So, it should be : "0.5 Kg. Meteorite, 100 grams (pure) Nickel". We should put "or" between meteorite and nickel, since when you have 0.5Kg good meteorite at hand, it should be sufficient to make a good pamor without the additions of nickel, and if we have 100 gram nickel it should also sufficient, and any additions of meteorite should be considered as "magical purpose". 0.5 kg nickel would be too much. (IMHO, the correct entry should be: 12 Kg iron, 0.5 Kg Steel, 100 gr. Nickel or 200 gr meteorite). Please remember, I'm talking about a very good pamor material, as good as Prambanan Meteorite. Having opportunity of handling personally this pamor, I must say, it resembles a pieces of iron than a piece of stone. It shows metallic-grey when you scratch it, and it is very likely that you don't need to wrap it with a stripe of wrought iron to prepare it, as long as you hammer it carefully. Empu Jeno, I believe, was only working succesfully on this very good meteorite pamor material, when Sultan HB IX commisioned a keris, and didn't add any nickel since he had sufficient amount. Empu Jeno told me that he needs to put the big chunk on forge for 3 days just to cut a small pieces of material needed. He also told me that once a Belgian came to commision a keris and also brought meteorite as the pamor material. But Jeno said that it was "unproper type" meteorite, and thus, he could not use it. I have never heard that Empu Jeno works on meteorite pamor material other than Prambanans. This meteorite, and kerises, will be exhibited in Sekaten Festival of Kraton Jogjakarta, which will be held this year on 1 - 11 April 2006.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 11:35 AM

What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit?

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

Pusaka · 14th March 2006, 01:04 PM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for that information. What is the maximum quantity of meteorite material you could successfully forge a keris with?
I remember being told that meteorite material used to be sold in the market in Solo, Jawa. If so what was that meteorite used for and where did it come from, it is doubtful that it was from the prambanan meteor IMO.

Purwacarita, interesting question. I have often wondered the same. The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.
It is possible that you may get a primitive voltaic pile effect which would produce a miniscule surface current. In that case some pamor types would be better then others at producing it but it would have no practical use.

nechesh · 14th March 2006, 02:22 PM

Thank you Pusaka for making clearer the "gentle" question Purwacarita was attempting to ask. I was more curious about that than the translation, but i do appreciate Purwa going into the explanation of it's meaning again.
Purwacarita, that was some time ago. Indonesian is not my language and though it did look somewhat familar i couldn't really place it. So your "Please......give me a break!

" was really un-called for. I meant no sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. This is an English speaking forum and i believe that it has been asked many times in the past that translations be provided.
I would also ask that you don't enter into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder. If you have a problem with anything i said to you in the past i ask that you either keep it there or work it out with me in PM. I try to treat everyone here fairly based upon the dialog of the PRESENT. Dregging up past disputes in unrelated debates is both counterproductive and distructive to the current discussion, don't you think?

Pusaka, if you read carefully through the thread that Andrew linked in the beginning of this thread i think you will find a post that references a book which makes mention of the fact that empus were often given quite a bit more Prambanan meteorite than was necessary to make the commissioned keris. Perhaps this could explain at least some of the meteorite that used to be found on sale in Javanese marketplaces.

Montino Bourbon · 14th March 2006, 04:39 PM

In very early times meteoritic material was incorporated into blades because it was an available form of relatively refined iron. Later on, it was incorporated more for the 'Power' aspect, as it "came from the sky".

I have heard of keris that were made with various irons and steels, including one made from eight different types of steel, all of which were stolen.

This points to a desire to make a keris with more than just 'Normal' properties, and since keris is so charged with 'spiritual' energy the meteorite would be included in the mix to strengthen those qualities, rather than improving the quality of the steel to make a better weapon.

In ancient Mexico, weapons were left where a 'spirit' could touch them and make them more powerful.Chaka Zulu's first Assegai, a weapon that was instrumental in his view of military strategy, in that it was for tactically advanced hand-to-hand combat rather that the relatively formalized throwing spear used in "Throw and dodge" formalized fighting, was tempered with hyena and lion intestines by Isangoma, his spiritual advisor. There are many ways that weapons can be 'charged' in various parts of the world, and because a weapon is concerned with life and death it's often respected as more than a 'tool'. Weapons have been personalized ("Ol' Betsy", Ironsides") and rightly. If a weapon preserved your life, or took another's life in the process, it became more than 'just a friend'.

Gosh, I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes!

purwacarita · 15th March 2006, 04:59 AM

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me?

It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

purwacarita · 15th March 2006, 05:02 AM

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani

nechesh · 15th March 2006, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me?

It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

No Purwacarita, i am afraid that i have not recieved any PMs from you. Please try again.

Pusaka · 15th March 2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

Carbon is not an electrical insulator; actually it’s a very good electrical conductor. If you put two metal plates with a piece of carbon between them you will find that it wont make a capacitor but that the whole thing will just short the circuit. I know a little about Electronics and Engineering

Mark · 15th March 2006, 03:40 PM

Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned.

Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

14th March 2006, 04:39 PM	#8
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	meteorite in keris In very early times meteoritic material was incorporated into blades because it was an available form of relatively refined iron. Later on, it was incorporated more for the 'Power' aspect, as it "came from the sky". I have heard of keris that were made with various irons and steels, including one made from eight different types of steel, all of which were stolen. This points to a desire to make a keris with more than just 'Normal' properties, and since keris is so charged with 'spiritual' energy the meteorite would be included in the mix to strengthen those qualities, rather than improving the quality of the steel to make a better weapon. In ancient Mexico, weapons were left where a 'spirit' could touch them and make them more powerful.Chaka Zulu's first Assegai, a weapon that was instrumental in his view of military strategy, in that it was for tactically advanced hand-to-hand combat rather that the relatively formalized throwing spear used in "Throw and dodge" formalized fighting, was tempered with hyena and lion intestines by Isangoma, his spiritual advisor. There are many ways that weapons can be 'charged' in various parts of the world, and because a weapon is concerned with life and death it's often respected as more than a 'tool'. Weapons have been personalized ("Ol' Betsy", Ironsides") and rightly. If a weapon preserved your life, or took another's life in the process, it became more than 'just a friend'. Gosh, I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes!

15th March 2006, 03:40 PM	#13
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Count to 10 Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned. Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

14th March 2006, 01:46 AM	#1
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	And it is still called meteorite though it is already technically engineered on earth ? I thought meteorite is extra terrestrial metal. Darn. Traditional methods usually have empirical approaches and tends to stray the constructiev progress to superstitions. Modern methods usually have technical scientific engineering approaches and tends to deny the real magic of the old world with logic. This thread will not be complete if the metal tempering area has not been covered. Like I was told that keris is tempered by dipping the whole blade into water without any temperature and timing standard but only by the smith's feeling. And still it could produce a variation blade texture like the pamor materials go out of the surface or dive into the blade, making a beautiful pamor of Ron Genduro or Bulu Ayam. Is that the same meteorite, just temper play (e.g partial tempering) or because different hardness of different metal which harder metal squeezes softer one during tempering? Is it scientificly possible that combined mixture of metals in pamor could naturally produce electro-voltaic energy like a electro-static capacitor? Hmm., I don't see any use of the answers for myself but it could be useful to others who might need it to improve keris smith in Indonesia. Thank you in advance for your gentle answers, you know, I do try to ask the question gently. ~Hing ngarson sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani

14th March 2006, 01:58 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Gee Purwacarita, you asked the question so gently that i'm not even sure exactly what it is you are asking.....or trying to say. And would you mind translating that last line for this ignorant American?

14th March 2006, 06:12 AM	#3
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh. It's good to read your gentle sarcasm once again. Last time you charged this innocent young man with accusation of disrespect. I recall that I've described the meaning in my last post several months ago, and now you ask me to describe it once again while you ignore it ? Please,.... give me a break! Many others can do the job much better than me. It is a philosophycal principle of idealism of life by Ki Hajar Dewantara. He is reknown as the father of education of Indonesia. The meaning of the principle is that people have three positions, in front, in the middle, and in the rear. Where people in front position should give good examples, while people in the middle shall share spirit with their surrounding neighbor to constructiveness. At last where people in the rear position must stimulate others with contructive motivation. It is felt that the difference between these three position is that people in front is somehow entitled leaders, in the middle - the workers, in the rear - wives. Though in the beginning this saying is the principle mostly refers to teachers in education field, nowadays only a few is willing to explore to its deeper meaning. It is an Indonesia national saying rarely spoken again, I hate it when you're right, but more or less it's because of capitalism like you quoted earlier. We have a national symbol too which has a saying in the ribbon banner, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. It means Diversity in Unity. So easy to say but very hard to implement specially in new communities where everyone else is different. I guess that what causes the 2 blasts and Jagadnata bombing, some people cannot accept that we are different from them. ~Hing ngarso sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut Wuri Handayani. Gitu Loh!

14th March 2006, 06:19 AM	#4
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Pusaka, I believe joglosemar wrongfully quote Empu Djeno. If we use meteorite as a pamor material, we needs roughly twice times than the pure nickel amount. So, it should be : "0.5 Kg. Meteorite, 100 grams (pure) Nickel". We should put "or" between meteorite and nickel, since when you have 0.5Kg good meteorite at hand, it should be sufficient to make a good pamor without the additions of nickel, and if we have 100 gram nickel it should also sufficient, and any additions of meteorite should be considered as "magical purpose". 0.5 kg nickel would be too much. (IMHO, the correct entry should be: 12 Kg iron, 0.5 Kg Steel, 100 gr. Nickel or 200 gr meteorite). Please remember, I'm talking about a very good pamor material, as good as Prambanan Meteorite. Having opportunity of handling personally this pamor, I must say, it resembles a pieces of iron than a piece of stone. It shows metallic-grey when you scratch it, and it is very likely that you don't need to wrap it with a stripe of wrought iron to prepare it, as long as you hammer it carefully. Empu Jeno, I believe, was only working succesfully on this very good meteorite pamor material, when Sultan HB IX commisioned a keris, and didn't add any nickel since he had sufficient amount. Empu Jeno told me that he needs to put the big chunk on forge for 3 days just to cut a small pieces of material needed. He also told me that once a Belgian came to commision a keris and also brought meteorite as the pamor material. But Jeno said that it was "unproper type" meteorite, and thus, he could not use it. I have never heard that Empu Jeno works on meteorite pamor material other than Prambanans. This meteorite, and kerises, will be exhibited in Sekaten Festival of Kraton Jogjakarta, which will be held this year on 1 - 11 April 2006. Best Regards, Boedhi Adhitya

14th March 2006, 11:35 AM	#5
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit? ~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

14th March 2006, 01:04 PM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for that information. What is the maximum quantity of meteorite material you could successfully forge a keris with? I remember being told that meteorite material used to be sold in the market in Solo, Jawa. If so what was that meteorite used for and where did it come from, it is doubtful that it was from the prambanan meteor IMO. Purwacarita, interesting question. I have often wondered the same. The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible. It is possible that you may get a primitive voltaic pile effect which would produce a miniscule surface current. In that case some pamor types would be better then others at producing it but it would have no practical use.

14th March 2006, 02:22 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Pusaka for making clearer the "gentle" question Purwacarita was attempting to ask. I was more curious about that than the translation, but i do appreciate Purwa going into the explanation of it's meaning again. Purwacarita, that was some time ago. Indonesian is not my language and though it did look somewhat familar i couldn't really place it. So your "Please......give me a break! " was really un-called for. I meant no sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. This is an English speaking forum and i believe that it has been asked many times in the past that translations be provided. I would also ask that you don't enter into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder. If you have a problem with anything i said to you in the past i ask that you either keep it there or work it out with me in PM. I try to treat everyone here fairly based upon the dialog of the PRESENT. Dregging up past disputes in unrelated debates is both counterproductive and distructive to the current discussion, don't you think? Pusaka, if you read carefully through the thread that Andrew linked in the beginning of this thread i think you will find a post that references a book which makes mention of the fact that empus were often given quite a bit more Prambanan meteorite than was necessary to make the commissioned keris. Perhaps this could explain at least some of the meteorite that used to be found on sale in Javanese marketplaces.

15th March 2006, 05:02 AM	#10
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani