Sudanese warrior question

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Iain! and I as I had hoped, you have added exactly the edifications and notes much needed to better detail these developments with kaskara. I think Stone used the term drawn from Burton (1884) where indeed the Baghirmi usage was properly placed. It is surprising that Burton, an almost obsessive linguist and copious writer of footnotes, did not bother to note the kaskara term. This omission, given his reputation, seems to have implied that the term was broadly in use for these broadswords, and led to the sundry application that emerged via the Stone reference.

I did not realize that those Alexandria swords were diplomatic gifts, but that would explain that they were typical inscribed in Arabic. I had forgotten that detail, and as you note, far from being 'trophies'.

Thank you for adding the notes on Sennar as well, and I was trying to recall that very important kingdom, who seem to have been well aligned with the Mamluks, who had been filtering out of Egypt into those Sudanic regions for some time especially with their disastrous crushing by the Ottomans in 1517. They were well emplaced there when the Sultan from Egypt invaded there c. 1821 and finished the Mamluks as well as overtaking these regions to Ottoman rule. The ultimate beginning of the Mahdist rebellions of 1880s.

I totally agree, most of the blades we see are far more contemporary than these early ones. I also agree that the established trade between Europe and the Ottomans provided a pretty standard supply , and that the instances of notable crusader period items that have been discovered (as we know) were more of one off anomalies than surplus offal being unloaded into these markets.

[ariel]

Well, guys. I have been ironic with the "crusader" attribution:-)

I am unaware of any surviving Sudanese swords with medieval European blades, or even Mamluk ones. Was it possible to find one really-really old blade 300-500 years ago? Who knows? Perhaps. My Time Machine is in the garage right now ( you know, oil, filters, tranny is acting up, carburetor needs cleaning, heavy water tank is leaking, unobtainium has degraded... the usual...). As soon as Mr. Lou finishes his job and pockets my check, I shall let you know.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, guys. I have been ironic with the "crusader" attribution:-)

I am unaware of any surviving Sudanese swords with medieval European blades, or even Mamluk ones. Was it possible to find one really-really old blade 300-500 years ago? Who knows? Perhaps. My Time Machine is in the garage right now ( you know, oil, filters, tranny is acting up, carburetor needs cleaning, heavy water tank is leaking, unobtainium has degraded... the usual...). As soon as Mr. Lou finishes his job and pockets my check, I shall let you know.

The British museum has a very good example with an at least early blade.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16814

The Met has a quite interesting example with a Persian blade.

I can't recall a specifically medieval one. However nobody thought they existed in takouba either and I'm happy to say that changed... There might be a few others out there with at least 16th century trade blades.

[Timo Nieminen]

There's an example in Stone's Glossary (fig 425, sword 1) dated AH357 (AD967), according to the inscription on the blade. Can't tell much from the photo in Stone.

I wonder if it looks somewhat like this one?: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=17

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

There's an example in Stone's Glossary (fig 425, sword 1) dated AH357 (AD967), according to the inscription on the blade. Can't tell much from the photo in Stone.

I wonder if it looks somewhat like this one?: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=17

Dates appearing in text on these blades are often tricky, they often don't indicate age but rather refer to historical events. The one pictured in Stone certainly is nowhere near that age but does appear from the photo to be a likely European blade in good mounts.