Old African knives

[Ian]

Hello Detlef:

Thank you for the link to that very informative web site. It seems that the more information that I look at, the more confused these attributions become. For example, example D that I posted, and you feel confidently is Saka, appears in Afrikanische Waffen (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl (p. 124) Fig. 221 where it is labeled as Kusu (see attached image from that reference).

Ian.

[Sajen]

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Pieje]

I agree with Sajen.

A & B = Ngombe, Poto
C = Lokele, So, Topoke
D = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Saka) - nothing to do with the Azande.
E = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Konda).

Also, there are many errors in the book "Afrikanische Waffen" (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl. His last book ("Panga na Visu", which I would recommend to all interested in African weapons, and not expensive) is better, but contains some fake weapons..

C might be the oldest one (end 19th or around 1900), a small iron pommel is of older age than the larger pommels. The others I would say early 20th century).

I would definitely clean the blades, as at the time, the owners would do the same. They were proud of their weapons and would keep them bright and clean all the time.

[thinreadline]

I know that we have discussed the matter of cleaning and restoration many times within this group and it is remarkable how diverse opinion on this matter is , both in degree and technique . However I cannot agree with the notion that we should take our cue from the original maker or owner . In that case we ought to not only clean our blades bright but also sharpen them and periodically change both the grips , scabbards (and bowstrings if appropriate ) , not to mention redecorating and colouring faded wood or leather ! My view is gentle preservation rather than attempts at restoration and if a prospective item for my collection is not as perfect as I would wish , then I either accept it until a better example comes along or do without it altogether . I remember being told as a young coin collector 'no matter how much you poish a coin , you cant make it new again ' !

[Pieje]

I only speak about cleaning/preserving the metal, which is not the same as altering a weapon by sharpening its edge or colouring feathers.
Cleaning would reveal details of the forging process, beautiful patterns or copper decorations/inlay.
Daily use would keep the weapons in good condition. If stored or unused for a long time, they get dirty and rusty. Rust is not a patina.

I’ll add as an example some pictures of a nice sword from South Congo. The first picture is when I bought it. When cleaning I’ve found a nice surprise in the form of a great and unusual decoration (figure and flower) and 2 tribal repairs, a brass and lead inlay probably to fill up gaps that occurred while forging the blade.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Pieje

I only speak about cleaning/preserving the metal, which is not the same as altering a weapon by sharpening its edge or colouring feathers.
Cleaning would reveal details of the forging process, beautiful patterns or copper decorations/inlay.
Daily use would keep the weapons in good condition. If stored or unused for a long time, they get dirty and rusty. Rust is not a patina.

I’ll add as an example some pictures of a nice sword from South Congo. The first picture is when I bought it. When cleaning I’ve found a nice surprise in the form of a great and unusual decoration (figure and flower) and 2 tribal repairs, a brass and lead inlay probably to fill up gaps that occurred while forging the blade.

I do agree with you , the removal of rust is most important and I would not suggest otherwise . However the beautiful decoration of your blade would disappear in time if it was constantly buffed and polished over time. The fact that you have discovered it on the blade is a testament to the lack of cleaning afforded to it by its original owner . Much of the decorative detail on Georgian and Victorian officers swords is now worn because of the military fashion of 'making things shiny ' !

[Pieje]

When kept in good condition, there was no need to aggressively clean or polish. But such weapons like mine (and many others brought back at the time) were no knives for everyday use, but parade, prestige and ritual weapons, only taken out on occasions and most care was given to them. All decorations have a meaning and should be visible.

But it's also my opinion that cleaning doesn't mean making shiny like a mirror.
Blades C and D from the original post are good enough, but I would definitely clean A and B. But as you said, everyone has to make up his own mind about this.

Choose for yourself which condition you like the most :-)
[Photo & collection: Luc Lefebvre]

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Pieje

I only speak about cleaning/preserving the metal, which is not the same as altering a weapon by sharpening its edge or colouring feathers.
Cleaning would reveal details of the forging process, beautiful patterns or copper decorations/inlay.
Daily use would keep the weapons in good condition. If stored or unused for a long time, they get dirty and rusty. Rust is not a patina.

I’ll add as an example some pictures of a nice sword from South Congo. The first picture is when I bought it. When cleaning I’ve found a nice surprise in the form of a great and unusual decoration (figure and flower) and 2 tribal repairs, a brass and lead inlay probably to fill up gaps that occurred while forging the blade.

I believe Pieje's stance on cleaning to be correct, and he has explained/illustrated his reasoning clearly and succinctly. But of course, great care must be taken in the cleaning process. If in doubt best to leave alone.

Great Congo knife by the way, never seen an incised human figure on these before !

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

I believe Pieje's stance on cleaning to be correct, and he has explained/illustrated his reasoning clearly and succinctly. But of course, great care must be taken in the cleaning process. If in doubt best to leave alone.

Agree complete!

[Pieje]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Great Congo knife by the way, never seen an incised human figure on these before !

Me neither!
I also have a Benge sword (Congo) in my collection with a human figure, but this type of decoration is very rarely seen on Congo blades.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef

next to the map I already downloaded, please find here a second one which might assist all of you further when it comes to ethnic / tribal determination

[Duccio]

A classic of African knife maps, from the book "Kipinga. Throwing-Blades of Central Africa" by Marc Leopold Felix.