Interesting sword for comment

RSWORD · 13th March 2006, 12:59 AM

Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang.

RSWORD · 14th March 2006, 09:38 PM

I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

ariel · 14th March 2006, 11:17 PM

I know nothing about swordmaking.
Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

PUFF · 15th March 2006, 09:50 AM

The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

RSWORD · 15th March 2006, 01:15 PM

Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style.

Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

ham · 15th March 2006, 04:45 PM

Rsword,

I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please:

Ham

B.I · 15th March 2006, 09:58 PM

hi rick,
very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations.
the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images).
also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always).
i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier.
i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later.
as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

13th March 2006, 12:59 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang. Attached Images

15th March 2006, 04:45 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Rsword, I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please: Ham Attached Images

14th March 2006, 09:38 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

14th March 2006, 11:17 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know nothing about swordmaking. Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

15th March 2006, 09:50 AM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

15th March 2006, 01:15 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style. Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

15th March 2006, 09:58 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations. the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images). also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always). i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier. i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later. as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.