Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

Pusaka · 12th March 2006, 07:31 PM

Thanks for all the info guys

I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else

so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.

Rick · 12th March 2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Thanks for all the info guys

I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else

so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.

Pusaka , please ........
Do you really think these guys are actually buying meteorite on ebay to make keris with ?

Especially when the only way you could tell if it was real would be through destructive testing !?!

Please pardon my skepticism .

Jeff Pringle · 12th March 2006, 10:41 PM

Believe it or not, Ebay is one of the main meteorite market places nowadays, the place to go in between mineral shows or if you don't have a dealer lined up. And yes, there are a few fake meteorites up for sale on any given day, but most of the stuff is real, and the meteorite dealers discuss the fakes on their discussion lists. The hard part of getting meteorites on ebay is knowing when you got a deal, and of course not getting sniped when you do get a deal. But the market for meteorites is such that some irons are generally cheap, some amazingly expensive, so with a little caution you can pick up forgeable extra-terrestrial iron for pennies a gram - which in itself is amazing.
Better to get a good relationship with a dealer, if you can find one who will give you wholesale prices, but ebay will do in a pinch.

Quote:

Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.

Pure Nickel is more predictable, but also more prone to shearing when you are manipulating the metal and more of a pain (difficult to get a flawless weld) in secondary welding operations, or at least that's been my experience. A little more control in patterning, but a little more annoying too

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Pusaka , please ........
Do you really think these guys are actually buying meteorite on ebay to make keris with ?

Especially when the only way you could tell if it was real would be through destructive testing !?!

Please pardon my skepticism .

O thanks for your skepticism, I find it most refreshing

Rick · 13th March 2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

O thanks for your skepticism, I find it most refreshing

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for your naivete .

You have a long road of learning (about keris culture and Indonesia) ahead of you young man ; and unless you can be present for the forging of your 'meteorite' keris and actually see the meteorite incorporated into the wilah I fear very much that you will be duped .

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 12:42 PM

My comment was more to the manner in which you said it then what you said, Where I come from this >>> (

)is an insult so why use it? Is there any need to be rude??

BluErf · 13th March 2006, 01:53 PM

Ok, its time to take a deep breath, everyone...

nechesh · 13th March 2006, 03:19 PM

Well Pusaka, i wouldn't get too hung up on emoticons. I have never personally seen (

) as a direct insult, just simply sarcasm. Don't lose sight of the content because of it. I say this because whether or nor you like the way Rick said it, i would agree with him that the likelihood of your commissioned meteorite keris not having any actual meteorite in it could be pretty high and it would be nearly impossible to tell one way or the other once the keris is forged.
So a huge caveat emptor here, my friend.

Rick · 13th March 2006, 04:00 PM

< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee >

Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage :

" So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it
hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out
of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a
good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron
bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as
getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself
without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). "

The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas .

So when you say :

" I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. "

My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ?

So I guess that it would be *possible* for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .

13th March 2006, 12:42 PM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	My comment was more to the manner in which you said it then what you said, Where I come from this >>> ( )is an insult so why use it? Is there any need to be rude?? Last edited by Pusaka; 13th March 2006 at 01:05 PM.

12th March 2006, 07:31 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Thanks for all the info guys I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.

13th March 2006, 01:53 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, its time to take a deep breath, everyone...

13th March 2006, 03:19 PM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Pusaka, i wouldn't get too hung up on emoticons. I have never personally seen ( ) as a direct insult, just simply sarcasm. Don't lose sight of the content because of it. I say this because whether or nor you like the way Rick said it, i would agree with him that the likelihood of your commissioned meteorite keris not having any actual meteorite in it could be pretty high and it would be nearly impossible to tell one way or the other once the keris is forged. So a huge caveat emptor here, my friend.

13th March 2006, 04:00 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee > Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage : " So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). " The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas . So when you say : " I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. " My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ? So I guess that it would be possible for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .