Gustav's Discovery

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2017, 10:09 AM

Please accept my most sincere apologies for my lapse in memory Gustav.Its only 5 years ago, and I really should have remembered. I guess it slipped my mind because of all that has happened since that time. In fact, in view of the fact that I average around 20 emails each day, and some of those emails generate multiple exchanges as well as phone conversations about keris, the forum discussions, catalogues, appraisals & etc, I might not even remember a discussion about this unusual feature if it had only happened last month.

It is possible that in 2012 I was using yahoo, and for the last few years I've been using AOL, in any case, I need to clean out my old emails every 12 months or so, so I would not have a copy either in yahoo or AOL.

But that doesn't matter, it seems you have a copy, so if we came up with anything worthwhile back in 2012, throw it into the mix.

Gustav · 6th August 2017, 10:17 AM

Alan, here it is:

Quote:

Yes, I also immediately thought about this different Ron Dha. A kris in Sweden, collected before 1676 (Jensen, page 85) also has a similar RD, and also one of the Keris in Munich, which is not depicted at Jensen.

Would you see some similarity between the (third) element of this RD, the nearest one to Gonjo, and the feature, much bigger of course, yet at the same place on some Megantoro's (the best one depicted at Bezemer)?

Regards,
Gustav

Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:52:27 -0800
From: alanmaisey@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Kinatah
To: gustavfriedrich@hotmail.com

Thank you very much for that Gustav. No, not eye candy, but a very nice old keris. Possibly back into the 1500's. Do you remember the keris that had a three prong "ron dha"? Not like a normal ron dha, but a different type of embellishment. This one has something similar.

Thanks,

Alan.

From: gustav friedrichsohn <gustavfriedrich@hotmail.com>
To: "alanmaisey@yahoo.com" <alanmaisey@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 1:06 AM
Subject: Kinatah

Goodday Alan,

I hope you are going well with your article.

Whilst searching the web I found this somewhat mutilated kris, shortened, the Gonjo could be replacement or not. Interesting is the almost perfectly preserved flat Kinatah, which in my eyes strongly resembles the Kinatah of one of the Kerisses in Vienna, collected before 1618.

Do you see some Persian influence in this Kinatah?

Possibly it could be originally intended as 3 Luk blade, which is rare.

I know, you would call this an eye-candy, yet perhaps it could be somewhat interesting for you.

http://www.penn.museum/collections/object/244340

Regards,
Gustav

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2017, 10:29 AM

Thanks Gustav.

That exchange looks like it went nowhere, however the subject has emerged again, it looks like a few people might be interested, and at the moment this thing fits in well with what I'm thinking about, so maybe we might trawl up an idea or two. Be good if we do.

Gustav · 6th August 2017, 10:34 AM

Regarding the age determination of Kerisses: the Keris 1 is donated to the Penn Museum in 1942 - nevertheless it has a blade, which most probably was made in the 1500'ties. Keris 5 came into VKM (then Natural History Museum) at the end of 19th. cent. It has a blade much older then that, we can see that.

Of course is the first mentioning of a Keris in a catalogue of a collection the first graspable point (often very uncertain) in "biography" of that Keris, and it is a very important fact. But it would be quite shortsighted to equate that date to the date of manufacture of Keris. There are a lot of funny descriptions around in Museums on different objects exactly because of that - and because of lacking research.

6th August 2017, 10:34 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Regarding the age determination of Kerisses: the Keris 1 is donated to the Penn Museum in 1942 - nevertheless it has a blade, which most probably was made in the 1500'ties. Keris 5 came into VKM (then Natural History Museum) at the end of 19th. cent. It has a blade much older then that, we can see that. Of course is the first mentioning of a Keris in a catalogue of a collection the first graspable point (often very uncertain) in "biography" of that Keris, and it is a very important fact. But it would be quite shortsighted to equate that date to the date of manufacture of Keris. There are a lot of funny descriptions around in Museums on different objects exactly because of that - and because of lacking research. Last edited by Gustav; 6th August 2017 at 11:48 AM. Reason: VKM-NHM

6th August 2017, 10:09 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,060	Please accept my most sincere apologies for my lapse in memory Gustav.Its only 5 years ago, and I really should have remembered. I guess it slipped my mind because of all that has happened since that time. In fact, in view of the fact that I average around 20 emails each day, and some of those emails generate multiple exchanges as well as phone conversations about keris, the forum discussions, catalogues, appraisals & etc, I might not even remember a discussion about this unusual feature if it had only happened last month. It is possible that in 2012 I was using yahoo, and for the last few years I've been using AOL, in any case, I need to clean out my old emails every 12 months or so, so I would not have a copy either in yahoo or AOL. But that doesn't matter, it seems you have a copy, so if we came up with anything worthwhile back in 2012, throw it into the mix.

6th August 2017, 10:29 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,060	Thanks Gustav. That exchange looks like it went nowhere, however the subject has emerged again, it looks like a few people might be interested, and at the moment this thing fits in well with what I'm thinking about, so maybe we might trawl up an idea or two. Be good if we do.