Gustav's Discovery

[kai]

Hello Alan,

. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?

according to what I have been taught this is a ri pandan, and it forms part of the ron dha

It also was my understanding that the uppermost hook of the ron dha nunut is called ri pandan and apparently forms an integral part. However, in strict sense it does not "participate" in building the ron dha nunut while the second ri pandan forms the right hand side of ron dha nunut (as well as in the ron dha following on the gonjo).

At least from a pattern recognition approach it does make sense to call the right hand element of the ron dha motif ri pandan.

Thingil certainly suits the middle "thorn" of the ron dha motif.

Thus, the question remains what do we call the left hand structure of the ron dha motif? With its more erect and often slender structure without much curvature and those notches on its top, it seems to deserve a name of its own! Early versions seem to exhibit a bit more curvature but it seems like a stretch to me to also call this element ri pandan, too...

. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.

sorry Jean, not according to the Surakarta Pakem, here it is called a ri pandan

I also just stumbled over this paradox and am glad there is another approach. While this isolated element certainly protrudes from the general outline of the blade/gonjo, it certainly has the shape of a ri pandan!

I'm in the process right now of putting up some posts that I do not expect will lessen this confusion, but will at least help you to understand what you are facing when you try to understand the keris from a Javanese perspective.

Great, I'm looking forward to more insights!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Here's a good little extra one for you, this is also from Waluyodipuro, 'Dhuwung'. This is an old text published 1959.

Compare with previous.

tengil --- this means 'a bulge or a swelling', I cannot remember hearing it used as a keris term, except to describe an obvious bulge, usually one that looks a bit out of place, but here it seems as if Waluyodipuro knew it as a keris term

lanjarngirim --- I do not know if this is a word or a description, I don't know it as a keris term, but I understand the sense in Javanese as "something extra that has been sent", in Indonesian, it might be "something long and tapering that has been sent". Frankly, to me, it just doesn't make sense. I just ran it past two native speakers of Javanese,both from Solo, both asked me to put it in a sentence, out of context, even as a descriptor, they had no idea what it meant.

Fun, isn't it?

EDIT

OK, it took a bit of effort, but I found some handwritten Javanese notes that translate as:-

"The thingil or lanjarngirim is placed below the eri-pandan'

So Waluyodipuro understood 'lanjarngirim' as an alternate name for 'thingil', and 'tengil' is simply dialect for 'thingil'.

Really great fun working with Javanese.

Wonderland language.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kai, there might well be a distinct name for the element that begins a ron dha, reading from the left, but I do not know it, and in my experience this break down of terminology is almost never used , mostly we just refer to the ron dha as an integral unit.

Frankly I see all this name business as total, absolute useless info, its not knowledge, it doesn't demonstrate one single thing except that some person, or group of people have stuck a name on something.

I did not put in a couple of hours finding, preparing and posting those images to provide information in respect of names, I did it because I wanted people to see how bl**dy pointless this stupid name game is.

The names used for various things, in this case keris elements, or really, composition of a keris element in this case, vary from place to place, time to time, person to person, group to group. The same people at different times will use the same word to refer to different features. The whole exercise of trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of ever changing names is pointless.

If we speak Javanese and use these words face to face as descriptors of something, the names can make sense, but used as solid, written in stone names that are universally understandable in text forever, the whole thing is just a waste of time. Forget the names, concentrate on the meaning of the symbol, the names mean nothing, they are all euphemisms given at the lowest level of knowledge in any case.

Thank you Alan and I agree with your conclusion!

[drdavid]

Thanks Alan
I certainly understand your comments on the 'name game'. The reason I asked what actually composes the ron dha was that if it were the space as opposed to the surrounds, that would conceptually match some of the meanings given to OM (or AUM), such as 'the beginning of everything'
cheers
DrDavid

[rasdan]

I have drawn this diagram to help with our discussion in this thread, but I have left out the gunungan and buntut mimi part.

I think originally the top and bottom ri pandan have the same shape (hence the similar name) - hooked thorn; with the top one facing up, the bottom one facing down. In time, the bottom one gets modified with a notch on top of it.

Please correct me if there are any mistakes/disagreements. I could miss some things discussed above as I browsed through it rather quickly.

[Gustav]

Very interesting.

Just an observating remark - Rasdan, you got something wrong regarding the Keris 5.

Keris 5 isn't the "latest version for Balinese Keris". It is in fact quite early.

Regarding the Balinese cutting unintentional "North Coast Dha's" besides a normal one on it, I will leave it to Balinese.

Also Keris 6 isn't "a slightly later Balinese keris".

But that's not so important.